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    Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

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    Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 11 Jun 2010 09:07

    I remember in Chapterhouse there's at least one scene with Scytale accompanying Odrade on a walk in the orchard, off the no-ship. I assume this means that he somehow was undetectable to prescience - but how? Certainly not through the Siona gene, I suppose? Or am I missing something?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 09:27

    You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Superdog » 11 Jun 2010 23:57

    Wasn't Scytale captured as a refugee after the HMs nuked their homeworld? If that's the case, then seemingly he would need a mechanism to be free of prescience yeah. They mention his skin is immune to scanners, could it also shield him from prescience?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 12 Jun 2010 08:38

    Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

    When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

    But maybe he just wanted to make an Atreides woman into a tank..?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 08:44

    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

    When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.


    They put Siona genes in Duncan!

    But maybe he just wanted to make an Atreides woman into a tank..?


    Yes or for the obvious genetic value.

    There's no way Odrade would have taken Scytale out of the no-ship if he didn't pass the proof of Siona.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Nekhrun » 12 Jun 2010 09:37

    Freakzilla wrote:
    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

    When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.


    They put Siona genes in Duncan!

    I wonder if Duncan's ability to gain all of the Duncan memories came from that Atreides addition to his genetic make-up.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 10:55

    Nekhrun wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

    When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.


    They put Siona genes in Duncan!

    I wonder if Duncan's ability to gain all of the Duncan memories came from that Atreides addition to his genetic make-up.


    Wow, I've never thought about that! Very interesting! :shock:
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Superdog » 12 Jun 2010 14:07

    Freakzilla wrote:
    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

    When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.


    They put Siona genes in Duncan!



    Wait, what? Why didn't they let Duncan out of the no-ship then?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 16:01

    Superdog wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

    When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.


    They put Siona genes in Duncan!



    Wait, what? Why didn't they let Duncan out of the no-ship then?


    Because some cells had it, some didn't. They weren't sure.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Jun 2010 16:07

    "There's a great interest in Archives lately," Bellonda said. "Sisters who know
    better come looking for confirmation -- whether such and so acolyte has a heavy
    Siona gene-mark."
    Odrade found this interesting. Their common Atreides ancestor from the Tyrant's
    eons, Siona Ibn Fuad al-Seyefa Atreides, had imparted to her descendants this
    ability that hid them from prescient searchers. Every person walking openly on
    Chapterhouse shared that ancestral protection.
    "A heavy mark?" Odrade asked. "Do they doubt that the ones in question are
    protected?"
    "They want reassurance," Bellonda growled. "And now may I return to Idaho? He
    has the genetic mark and he does not. It worries me. Why do some of his cells
    not have the Siona marker? What were the Tleilaxu doing?"
    "Duncan knows the danger and he's not suicidal," Odrade said.

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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 12 Jun 2010 19:40

    What does it mean to have a 'heavy mark'? Redundant copies of the gene perhaps?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 13 Jun 2010 07:44

    If Scytale had the Siona gene, wouldn't that make him, technically, an Atreides? :|
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Lundse » 13 Jun 2010 08:10

    MrFlibble wrote:If Scytale had the Siona gene, wouldn't that make him, technically, an Atreides? :|


    Wow! Good thing he never thought of that himself; he'd have torn himself apart in some kind of epic honour-bound self-referential loyalty-loop.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 13 Jun 2010 08:24

    Lundse wrote:
    MrFlibble wrote:If Scytale had the Siona gene, wouldn't that make him, technically, an Atreides? :|


    Wow! Good thing he never thought of that himself; he'd have torn himself apart in some kind of epic honour-bound self-referential loyalty-loop.

    I'm certain he knew better than that :)
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Jun 2010 10:40

    I doubt he's descended from Siona, the gene was probably added like it was to Idaho.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 14 Jun 2010 10:59

    Freakzilla wrote:I doubt he's descended from Siona, the gene was probably added like it was to Idaho.

    Scytale being a descendant of Siona is out of the question - after all, he was centuries older than her. I only meant that technically speaking, the presence of some Atreides genes in his DNA would make him part Atreides, which is kind of a weird thought :)
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Jun 2010 17:41

    I don't think it's that weird, the Siona Gene is a very desirable trait to have, I have gotten used to thinking of just about everyone in the latter books being descended from Siona.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby A Little Galach » 15 Jun 2010 08:34

    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I doubt he's descended from Siona, the gene was probably added like it was to Idaho.

    Scytale being a descendant of Siona is out of the question - after all, he was centuries older than her. I only meant that technically speaking, the presence of some Atreides genes in his DNA would make him part Atreides, which is kind of a weird thought :)


    Couldn't they just splice the gene in? They certainly tinkered with the Duncans, but every time he was still "Duncan."
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 15 Jun 2010 09:26

    Freakzilla wrote:I don't think it's that weird, the Siona Gene is a very desirable trait to have, I have gotten used to thinking of just about everyone in the latter books being descended from Siona.

    Hm, I don't know why, but I had that impression the Tleilaxu did not have this gene. No positive stuff to support it though. Perhaps I thought so because they've engineered themselves some unique traits like their female offspring's Other Memory was blocked.

    As for everyone being descendants of Siona, it's probably true for many BG's, but not the rest of the Old Empire's population. It is mentioned, for example, that only some of people on Gammu were Atreides descendants, and they were quite numerous due to the past possession of the planet by the Atreides.

    A Little Galach wrote:Couldn't they just splice the gene in? They certainly tinkered with the Duncans, but every time he was still "Duncan."

    If Tleilaxu Masters had the Siona gene, this is most probably they way it was instilled in them (I guess).
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 15 Jun 2010 14:35

    I think of at as:

    "Siona gene" == some gene sequence, naturally present in the descendants of Siona.

    "Atreides" == the result of two Atreides bonking.

    Most of humanity inherited the Siona gene by being descended from Atreides, but the Tleilaxu could have the Siona gene without being Atreides.

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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 16 Jun 2010 11:18

    Would be nice if someone could provide actual quotes that would resolve the issue with BT Maters having the Siona gene. I'm interested in this because I wonder if it were possible for the Tleilaxu to replicate the Siona gene, i.e. to produce prescience-shielded individuals of their own making (they did succeed with artificial spice and even their own Kwisatz Haderach, after all).
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 16 Jun 2010 11:25

    Odrade took Scytale out of the no-ship for walks on Chapterhouse, is that not proof enough?
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby MrFlibble » 18 Jun 2010 09:48

    Freakzilla wrote:Odrade took Scytale out of the no-ship for walks on Chapterhouse, is that not proof enough?

    While it's an indication that Scytale was shielded from prescience, it does not answer my question about whether this ability came from just using the Siona gene, or was something engineered by the Bene Tleilax independently.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 Jun 2010 11:22

    MrFlibble wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Odrade took Scytale out of the no-ship for walks on Chapterhouse, is that not proof enough?

    While it's an indication that Scytale was shielded from prescience, it does not answer my question about whether this ability came from just using the Siona gene, or was something engineered by the Bene Tleilax independently.



    Simplest answer would be that they isolated the Siona gene and implanted it in themselves I suppose. Could be that they just studied it and came up with something similar, but this is something that was bred and selected for by their prophet, so I would imagine that they would consider it an honour to use the actual gene.
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    Re: Was Scytale shielded from prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Jun 2010 12:50

    I don't think FH says how they did it. Considering they were master geneticists...
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