Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

There aren't any in the series, are there? Not a single one.

Sure, Scytale offers to give Chani back to Paul, but he gets knifed for his troubles and besides, Paul wasn't going for it anyway.

I can't think of even any mention of another. Anyone?

I believe the only gholas are Hayt, the Duncan Idahos, the Tleilaxu Masters and Teg.

Conceptually I don't see why you couldn't have a female ghola, but yeah, it had never occurred to me before that there wasn't any.

Wasn't Bijaz, the dwarf, a ghola? He claimed to have been there when Hayt was decanted, the same tank in which he was created.

" "Did you really see me go into the Tleilaxu tanks?" Hayt asked, fighting an odd reluctance to ask that question. "Did I not say it?" Bijaz demanded. The dwarf bounced to his feet. "We had a terrific struggle with you. The flesh did not want to come back" "

" "We are like brothers," Bijaz said, interrupting his monotonous hum once more. "We grew in the same tank: I first, then you." "
Dune Messiah

artistagent116 wrote:Wasn't Bijaz, the dwarf, a ghola? He claimed to have been there when Hayt was decanted, the same tank in which he was created.

" "Did you really see me go into the Tleilaxu tanks?" Hayt asked, fighting an odd reluctance to ask that question. "Did I not say it?" Bijaz demanded. The dwarf bounced to his feet. "We had a terrific struggle with you. The flesh did not want to come back" "

" "We are like brothers," Bijaz said, interrupting his monotonous hum once more. "We grew in the same tank: I first, then you." "
Dune Messiah

I don't think that necessarily means Bijaz was a ghola. For all we know, Face Dancers, chairdogs, sligs and everything between are created in axlotl tanks.

I don't think that necessarily means Bijaz was a ghola. For all we know, Face Dancers, chairdogs, sligs and everything between are created in axlotl tanks.

Here's my argument on that, Freakzilla.....toward the end of DM:

"Duncan is it?" Bijaz asked. "Is it truly Duncan Idaho?"
"It is", Idaho said. "I remember."
"Then Scytale's plan succeeded!"
"Scytale is dead," Paul said.
"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts-all of them. It needs only the right trigger."

Bijaz wanted his own pasts, just as Duncan now had his. Bijaz realized that he only needed the proper trigger. Only a ghola would have "pasts", right?

Also, Bijaz tempted Paul with the promise of a Chani ghola, so I believe that female gholas were a possibility....even fertile ones.

artistagent116 wrote:

I don't think that necessarily means Bijaz was a ghola. For all we know, Face Dancers, chairdogs, sligs and everything between are created in axlotl tanks.

Here's my argument on that, Freakzilla.....toward the end of DM:

"Duncan is it?" Bijaz asked. "Is it truly Duncan Idaho?"
"It is", Idaho said. "I remember."
"Then Scytale's plan succeeded!"
"Scytale is dead," Paul said.
"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts-all of them. It needs only the right trigger."

Bijaz wanted his own pasts, just as Duncan now had his. Bijaz realized that he only needed the proper trigger. Only a ghola would have "pasts", right?

Also, Bijaz tempted Paul with the promise of a Chani ghola, so I believe that female gholas were a possibility....even fertile ones.

You're right! I thought of that after I posted but got sidetracked and forgot.

(Some have suggested that Bijaz was a (the original?) Master.)

I've said this before : Bijaz & Hayt are two sides of the same coin ...

Come to think of it, when the concept of gholas is first introduced, it is nowhere elaborated what purpose does the creation of gholas serve in the first place. If they were mostly used within the Tleilaxu society, then no wonder there were no ghola women, as there supposedly is a strong male dominance among the Tleilaxu already at the times of Muad'Dib. Other than that, there seems to be nothing to preclude the creation and use of female gholas.

Yeah, I think the fact that Scytale was attempting to tempt Paul with a Chani-ghola shows there was no problem in theory with creating a female ghola. I just thought it was interesting that there were none at all in the books. No real significance, just another weird fact.

(For some reason I had gholas on the brain yesterday morning as I was showering & getting ready to hit the road. )

I guess it just never came up that a female ghola was needed for the plot.

Freakzilla wrote:
You're right! I thought of that after I posted but got sidetracked and forgot.

(Some have suggested that Bijaz was a (the original?) Master.)

Intriguing..........very intriguing. Want to expand on that? I'd be very willing to listen.

SandChigger wrote:Yeah, I think the fact that Scytale was attempting to tempt Paul with a Chani-ghola shows there was no problem in theory with creating a female ghola. I just thought it was interesting that there were none at all in the books. No real significance, just another weird fact.

I think there are quite a few interesting aspects of the ghola issue. Like I said above, what was their "primary" purpose in the first place (outside direct Tleilaxu interests, that is; and I'm referring to the Muad'Dib-era gholas without restored memories)? E.g. Face Dancers were for entertainment and, on the other hand, all sorts of espionage, infiltration and assassination missions. As for the gholas, we know that the Sardaukar who delivered Duncan's corpse to the Tleilaxu hoped to make him into a combat instructor, provided his military skills survived intact. But it seems to me that not only the Fremen but other people in the Imperium as well held prejudices against gholas. In any case, I didn't get the impression that gholas were a widely-marketed product of the Tleilaxu, and it is quite possible that during Leto II's reign they were created solely for the God Emperor and the Bene Tleilax.

artistagent116 wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:
You're right! I thought of that after I posted but got sidetracked and forgot.

(Some have suggested that Bijaz was a (the original?) Master.)

Intriguing..........very intriguing. Want to expand on that? I'd be very willing to listen.

Me forgetting or Bijaz being the first BT Master?

I believe we discussed this here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=368" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(BT Masters, not my memory.)

Freakzilla wrote:

artistagent116 wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:
You're right! I thought of that after I posted but got sidetracked and forgot.

(Some have suggested that Bijaz was a (the original?) Master.)

Intriguing..........very intriguing. Want to expand on that? I'd be very willing to listen.

Me forgetting or Bijaz being the first BT Master?

I believe we discussed this here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=368" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(BT Masters, not my memory.)

Oh yeah... It was me who suggested that.

MrFlibble wrote:In any case, I didn't get the impression that gholas were a widely-marketed product of the Tleilaxu, and it is quite possible that during Leto II's reign they were created solely for the God Emperor and the Bene Tleilax.

Ahp. Considering that creating one in the early period was presumably quite expensive, they would necessarily have been a high-end product available only to the aristocracy and wealthy organizations.

Of course, before the BT learned to awaken the original memories, I can't see that there would have been much of a demand. Other than for people with physical skills like Duncan-as-swordmaster. Other possibilities seem positively... ghoulish.

SandChigger wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Of course, before the BT learned to awaken the original memories, I can't see that there would have been much of a demand. Other than for people with physical skills like Duncan-as-swordmaster.

I don't even see how that would apply. A ghola of a swordmaster without restored memories would have to learn sword fighting again, making the cost even more prohibitive. I suppose there could be some residual "muscle memory" that could shorten the training, though.

(As I'm sure you know, Swordmaster was not a solely physical profession, they were also tacticians.)

Freakzilla wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Of course, before the BT learned to awaken the original memories, I can't see that there would have been much of a demand. Other than for people with physical skills like Duncan-as-swordmaster.

I don't even see how that would apply. A ghola of a swordmaster without restored memories would have to learn sword fighting again, making the cost even more prohibitive. I suppose there could be some residual "muscle memory" that could shorten the training, though.

(As I'm sure you know, Swordmaster was not a solely physical profession, they were also tacticians.)

Depends on what kind of memory loss we're talking about though - did Hayt have to be re-taught how to speak and everything? Some people that have amnesia lose all their memories of their lives, but still retain skills and basic knowledge like language, math, history etc.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Of course, before the BT learned to awaken the original memories, I can't see that there would have been much of a demand. Other than for people with physical skills like Duncan-as-swordmaster.

I don't even see how that would apply. A ghola of a swordmaster without restored memories would have to learn sword fighting again, making the cost even more prohibitive. I suppose there could be some residual "muscle memory" that could shorten the training, though.

(As I'm sure you know, Swordmaster was not a solely physical profession, they were also tacticians.)

Depends on what kind of memory loss we're talking about though - did Hayt have to be re-taught how to speak and everything? Some people that have amnesia lose all their memories of their lives, but still retain skills and basic knowledge like language, math, history etc.

Good question!

I seem to remember examples of Duncan and/or Teg remembering some things before they were taught in the latter books. But they seemed to have to have been re-educated.

Freakzilla wrote:I don't even see how that would apply. A ghola of a swordmaster without restored memories would have to learn sword fighting again, making the cost even more prohibitive. I suppose there could be some residual "muscle memory" that could shorten the training, though.

(As I'm sure you know, Swordmaster was not a solely physical profession, they were also tacticians.)

Right. I was thinking of this, from the beginning of Messiah, before the BT discovered the memory trigger:

"Even in defeat," Edric said, "your father's Sardaukar did not abandon wisdom. Let us suppose a wise Sardaukar commander recognized the swordmaster in a corpse his men had slain. What then? There exist uses for such flesh and training...if one acts swiftly."

...

"No Face Dancer," Edric said. "A Face Dancer risks exposure under prolonged surveillance. No; let us assume that our wise Sardaukar commander had Idaho's corpse preserved for the axolotl tanks. Why not? This corpse held the flesh and nerves of one of the finest swordsmen in history, an adviser to the Atreides, a military genius. What a waste to lose all that training and ability when it might be revived as an instructor for the Sardaukar."

Note that among Duncan's abilities he specifically mentions his role as "adviser" and his being a "military genius". To me, that seems a bit contradictory if you're just talking about the physical reflex and conditioned responses that a human body could be assumed to retain without the individual-persona-specific memories of personality that the books portray gholas as lacking until reawakening.

Possibly a minor glitch in FH's editing, something that wasn't quite worked out and didn't get removed later?

Edit: So the gholas of different periods would have different basic "skill sets". The repaired-and-reanimated Hayt-style type would be fully grown and might be expected to retain some physical abilities and prowess, but the later "clone baby" Duncan- and Teg-style ones would be more like normal infants/children/young adults until their memories were awakened. With a little bit of bleed-thru, as shown in the books.

Freakzilla wrote:I seem to remember examples of Duncan and/or Teg remembering some things before they were taught in the latter books. But they seemed to have to have been re-educated.

Of course, they started out as babbies, so their interim personas would have had to have learned to walk and talk, etc. etc., all over again. Makes sense, no?

Hayt and Dune-period gholas were a somewhat different case.

I was thinking about that too, it does seem to be a contradiction.

Then again... maybe, if you re-trained a ghola the chances would be high that he would again excel in his previous areas of expertise. Things would come naturally and easily due to the repressed memories.

Freakzilla wrote:Then again... maybe, if you re-trained a ghola the chances would be high that he would again excel in his previous areas of expertise. Things would come naturally and easily due to the repressed memories.

Alia says that Hayt flies exactly like Duncan Idaho did. "What a waste to lose all that training and ability when it might be revived as an instructor for the Sardaukar" could refer to potential training and ability. There does seem to be a contradiction, though, like it's not completely worked out in DM. Interesting.


EDIT: post preempted, hence redundant... But.

SandChigger wrote:

Edit: So the gholas of different periods would have different basic "skill sets". The repaired-and-reanimated Hayt-style type would be fully grown and might be expected to retain some physical abilities and prowess, but the later "clone baby" Duncan- and Teg-style ones would be more like normal infants/children/young adults until their memories were awakened. With a little bit of bleed-thru, as shown in the books.

This makes sense, because with a re-animated ghole you still have the physical brain containing memories (though the memories of their life seem to be locked in OM, because otherwise Bijaz wouldn't have been so excited about Hayt's unlocking his memories meaning that Bijaz would get his own?), whereas with a clone all memories would be in OM.