No female gholas

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MrFlibble
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Re: No female gholas

Postby MrFlibble » 08 Jun 2010 07:34

I've always considered Hayt's (and presumably other gholas' of this type, i.e. re-animated people) condition as a form of amnesia: he'd retain his skills (and could be taught new ones, like he became a Mentat and a Zensunni philosopher), but not personal memories. That quote about reviving him as an instructor seems to support this interpretation: if he were to be taught his military skills again, why bother reviving him in the first place? Clone gholas in the later books, on the other hand, grow and develop as regular children until their original memories are restored. So I don't think there is a contradiction, it's that "corpse" gholas and "clone" gholas are two different things.
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

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Hunchback Jack
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Re: No female gholas

Postby Hunchback Jack » 08 Jun 2010 08:58

That's more or less the way I thought of it too.

Perhaps "corpse gholas" and "cell-grown gholas" would be better terms. "Clone" is a term used to describe a body grown from living cells, as distinct from a "ghola", which is grown from dead cells or a corpse. So "clone ghola" is a bit confusing :).

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lotek
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Re: No female gholas

Postby lotek » 08 Jun 2010 09:10

merkin muffley wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Then again... maybe, if you re-trained a ghola the chances would be high that he would again excel in his previous areas of expertise. Things would come naturally and easily due to the repressed memories.



Alia says that Hayt flies exactly like Duncan Idaho did. "What a waste to lose all that training and ability when it might be revived as an instructor for the Sardaukar" could refer to potential training and ability. There does seem to be a contradiction, though, like it's not completely worked out in DM. Interesting.


Yeah I was going to look for that quote :)

The fact that this was said before the possibility to awaken a ghola memory seems to suggest that(at least at the time in Frank's mind)there would some sort of residual trace of an individual in his ghola.
Otherwise you'd just have a "look alike" and nothing more.

I think there is something to look for in the importance of genetic memory in Dune.
Could it not be considered that it is a sort of background rule in Dune that DNA carries traces of one's own self, and not just with Other Memory?(if that is not the case already of course)
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merkin muffley
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Re: No female gholas

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 09:25

lotek wrote:I think there is something to look for in the importance of genetic memory in Dune.
Could it not be considered that it is a sort of background rule in Dune that DNA carries traces of one's own self, and not just with Other Memory?(if that is not the case already of course)


Yeah, I think that's also important.
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Freakzilla
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Re: No female gholas

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jun 2010 22:06

lotek wrote:I think there is something to look for in the importance of genetic memory in Dune.
Could it not be considered that it is a sort of background rule in Dune that DNA carries traces of one's own self, and not just with Other Memory?(if that is not the case already of course)


Well of course it is. But it's embedded in your nerve cells:

"Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had
awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the
knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells -- and all this after
the death of her father.

~DM

Surely it has to be recorded in your own body before you pass it on.
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MrFlibble
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Re: No female gholas

Postby MrFlibble » 09 Jun 2010 08:49

lotek wrote:The fact that this was said before the possibility to awaken a ghola memory seems to suggest that(at least at the time in Frank's mind)there would some sort of residual trace of an individual in his ghola.
Otherwise you'd just have a "look alike" and nothing more.

More quotes on the matter:
Dune Messiah wrote:Edric rolled in the tank, bringing his attention to bear on the ghola. "This is a man called Hayt," he said, spelling the name. "According to our investigators, he has a most curious history. He was killed here on Arrakis... a grievous head-wound which required many months of regrowth. The body was sold to the Bene Tleilax as that of a master swordsman, an adept of the Ginaz School. It came to our attention that this must be Duncan Idaho, the trusted retainer of your household. We bought him as a gift befitting an Emperor." Edric peered up at Paul. "Is it not Idaho, Sire?"

Dune Messiah wrote:"May it please my Lord," the ghola added, "if I say his voice gives me pleasure. This is a sign, say the Bene Tleilax, that I have heard the voice... before."
"But you don't know this for sure," Paul said.
"I know nothing of my past for sure, my Lord. It was explained that I can have no memory of my former life. All that remains from before is the pattern set by the genes. There are, however, niches into which once familiar things may fit. There are voices, places, foods, faces, sounds, actions -- a sword in my hand, the controls of a 'thopter... "
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!


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