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Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 16:17
by A Thing of Eternity
Thanks, I have now accepted that this is a fuckup and am continueing my comments in that thread.

EDIT: Nope, I've flipflopped again, I'm back to being sure he's a Hayt clone. See other thread for comments.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 16:23
by D Pope
It's not my call but I think it would work in both places, as long as there are no spoilers in the ch.6 thread.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 16:25
by A Thing of Eternity
Yeah, but I don't think it would be good for me to just copy and paste all my comments into both threads, so I picked one.

On second thought though, I think that whole disscussion in the reading group should be cut and pasted into this thread because this thread is where the main discussion of this is. I will leave that up to Mods to decide though and continue posting in the reading group.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 16:47
by A Thing of Eternity
I've already forgotten half the stuff that suggested him being Hayt, but I'll try to make note of as much as I can from this point on in the book. Then I'll post what I can. Him not needing to be informed on the whole Muad'dib thing, remembering the twins, and recognising Muad'dib's crysknife are the ones that stand out right now.

As for the mentat thing, as I stated in the other thread, I think forgetting that Hayt was a mentat is a lesser mistake than forgetting that Duncan died before Paul was ever Muad'dib. Which mistake did FH make? Good question. So far the only evidence I see for him making the worse mistake is that Duncan isn't a mentat in GEoD - but maybe there is more evidence to be had?

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 16:48
by A Thing of Eternity
D.Pope, the post I was replying to with my last post seems to have been deleted?

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 17:32
by D Pope
I'm still enthused, lets see if we can change some minds!

sorry, I was doing to much to think clearly- I did delete it.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 19:14
by SandChigger
D Pope wrote:It's not often you hear an OH suggest that FH made a mistake.
Not at all true. ;)

He was crap at math, for example. Or didn't even bother trying to make the math in the books work. (He couldn't even handle simple arithmetic, like counting: first Farok has one arm and then next thing you know, he has two! :lol: )

And in real life he made a continuing series of mistakes. First, he didn't pull it out that night in late September '46. Then he didn't disown the kid when he started getting stroppy and drinking all the time. Finally, he didn't stipulate that his notes and materials be burned in his will. :twisted:

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 19:18
by D Pope
...that night in '46...

What would the world have been like. :lol:

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 19:25
by D Pope
We need a decision on this, do we discuss GEoDs Duncans origin here or in ch.6?

edit; origin of the Duncan in GEoD.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 19:39
by Nekhrun
Start a new thread with a Poll.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 20:21
by SadisticCynic
There is a quote about the Mentat thing that is relevant to the discussion in God Emperor chapter 6 but it's from Chapterhouse: Dune, so I'll post it here and it can be moved if necessary:
Chapterhouse: Dune wrote:His long service to the Tyrant fascinated her. Not only had he been a Mentat
several times but there was evidence he had been a Truthsayer in more than one
incarnation.
Despite the Tyrant not allowing Mentats he did allow Duncan to be one at some points and also recall that he allowed it to survive underground within the Bene Gesserit.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 22:30
by SandRider
I guess I don't get the issue here -

Hayt was the re-animated corpse of Duncan Idaho;
any "cells" used for the subsequent reproduction of the Duncans
came from this source ....

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 08 Jul 2010 23:56
by SandChigger
Aye, but when CAME they thence, Dear Hoarbeard?

Before the corpse was repaired and reanimated?

Or after it was repaired and reanimated and the ghola trained as a Mentat (for twelve years?)? ;)

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 00:10
by A Thing of Eternity
SadisticCynic wrote:There is a quote about the Mentat thing that is relevant to the discussion in God Emperor chapter 6 but it's from Chapterhouse: Dune, so I'll post it here and it can be moved if necessary:
Chapterhouse: Dune wrote:His long service to the Tyrant fascinated her. Not only had he been a Mentat
several times but there was evidence he had been a Truthsayer in more than one
incarnation.
Despite the Tyrant not allowing Mentats he did allow Duncan to be one at some points and also recall that he allowed it to survive underground within the Bene Gesserit.
Well, that's a good quote about a Duncan becoming a mentat but doesn't add to how a clone of Hayt could un-become a mentat (other than FH forgetting). Not sure if that was your intention or if you were just adding random trivia about Duncans being mentats.
SandRider wrote:I guess I don't get the issue here -

Hayt was the re-animated corpse of Duncan Idaho;
any "cells" used for the subsequent reproduction of the Duncans
came from this source ....
Some people are saying that the cells used for later Duncans came from before he was reanimated, and thus are clones of Duncan, not Hayt - because, as discussed above, in GEoD Duncan is not a mentat, whereas Hayt was.

So either FH messed up and should have made him a mentat, or he f-d up orders of magnitude worse and meant for him to be a clone of Duncan (pre-Hayt) but then gave him memories from Hayt's time.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 00:29
by SandChigger
Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 00:34
by D Pope
Thing wrote:Some people are saying that the cells used for later Duncans came from before he was reanimated, and thus are clones of Duncan, not Hayt - because, as discussed above, in GEoD Duncan is not a mentat, whereas Hayt was.

So either FH messed up and should have made him a mentat, or he f-d up orders of magnitude worse and meant for him to be a clone of Duncan (pre-Hayt) but then gave him memories from Hayt's time.

Therein lies the heart of the dispute. I'm with you, the rest doesn't make sense.

Sandchigger, thou art villan. :P

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 00:53
by A Thing of Eternity
SandChigger wrote:Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:
This actually did cross my mind in all seriousness. We know this book was written in the "hey, look how much they're paying me for this!" period, so it's possible that he decided to mess with people.

BUT - FH rewarded careful readers, he didn't punish them. Finding this discrepancy is no reward, just makes readers angry, knocks them out of their suspension of disbelief etc. It has no positive effect. (Unless he was setting us up for later Duncans having memories from incarnations they could not have! :shock: :shock: :shock: )

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 01:08
by D Pope
The third possibility could be very real, i've wondered if He had somthing in mind this early that would explain how the last Duncan did his stuff.

meanwhile... Holy Shit! Hayt was a reanimated corpse??! Rider, Chigger, lay it on me. Here's a new thing I hadn't expected! Please explain.

:shock: :o :x :oops: :shock: :o

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 01:20
by A Thing of Eternity
D Pope wrote:The third possibility could be very real, i've wondered if He had somthing in mind this early that would explain how the last Duncan did his stuff.

meanwhile... Holy Shit! Hayt was a reanimated corpse??! Rider, Chigger, lay it on me. Here's a new thing I hadn't expected! Please explain.

:shock: :o :x :oops: :shock: :o
Re-read Dune Messiah sometime soon is my recomendation. Hayt is not grown from childhood (only 12 years have passed remember, and he is full grown and adult in DM), he is the exact corpse of Duncan Idaho ressurected. "Ghola" originally meant a corpse brought back to life in DM, and was later expanded on to include clones from both dead and living flesh. Whether FH meant them to include clones the whole time or whether he expanded on the idea isn't known to me.

By the way, about the name of the tanks they are grown in. "Axolotl" is a typeof salamander (not a feeesh... inside joke with me and Chig, sorry!) that is able to regenerate many of it's body parts. I think that's a good clue which suggests that FH originally intended these tanks and their gholas to be rebuilding machines/rebuilt people.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 01:35
by D Pope
That makes me feel idiotic. Twelve years...
I guess I simply superimposed every clone TV show growth accelerator bull if it ever even occured to me. So, for having displayed all the mental depth of an inverted saucer, let me know when I may remove my dunce cap... And thanks, I love this place!

You're right, it's been too long. DM is now next on the list.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 01:38
by A Thing of Eternity
It happens - when I first joined the boards I thought that whole scene where Duncan dies was off-screen... then when I next re-read Dune I found it. I don't even think I forgot it, I think I missed that ENTIRE chapter somehow... very weird.

Check your PMs by the way.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 03:25
by Serkanner
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:
(Unless he was setting us up for later Duncans having memories from incarnations they could not have! :shock: :shock: :shock: )
This is exactly what happened to Duncun in Chapterhouse when his memories of all his previous bodies return ... included are memories from bodies of which no cells had been saved.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 12:40
by A Thing of Eternity
Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Or maybe FH was actually an evil, evil man and decided to screw with his readers and put in the inconsistencies on purpose. :shock:

:lol:

:shock:
(Unless he was setting us up for later Duncans having memories from incarnations they could not have! :shock: :shock: :shock: )
This is exactly what happened to Duncun in Chapterhouse when his memories of all his previous bodies return ... included are memories from bodies of which no cells had been saved.
That's what I was referring to, the slight possibility that FH introduced the discrepancy in order to prep people for that bit of weirdness.

BUT, I don't think this is the case, Leto II would have mentioned at some point how curious it was that Duncan had memories from Hayt's tim without being a clone of Hayt. He would have been all over something like that.

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 12:55
by D Pope
Continued from ch.6

merkin muffley wrote:There would be no need for those abilities to be awakened, because he would have memories of being a mentat. Paul had to have them awakened because he A: didn't know he had been trained as one until someone pointed it out, and B: at that time he still needed more training to become one, remember he is asked whether or not he wants to pursue that path and he says yes.
I'm misunderstanding, I thought Paul had gotten some training- wanted more- then left it for the KH thing.( A ghola from Hayt would already have been through all that.) Do you mean the early training 'awakened' his potential as a mentat?

Re: The Duncans

Posted: 09 Jul 2010 13:03
by D Pope
from ch.6
merkin muffley wrote:Word up. I knew his swordmaster abilities and training were relevant.
I just meant it as an example, parallel to mentat. I should think that being a mentat would help with the integration of two lifetimes of memories, maybe swordmater abilities would help too.