The Duncans

Image
    Master Geneticists and Sufi-Zensunnis

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

RedHeadKevin
Posts: 66
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 19:45
Contact:

The Duncans

Postby RedHeadKevin » 25 Aug 2009 23:09

A simple question: Were the Duncan Idahos, after Hayt, gholas of the original Duncan, or of Hayt? I can find a lot of evidence to support either.

I personally say they were gholas made from Hayt's cells:
-There's a scene where a Duncan remembers the Twins as babies (The original Duncan was dead long before that)
- a Duncan refers to Paul as "Muad'Dib." (The original Duncan died before Paul took that name)
- a Duncan says he can resist The Voice, because Muad'Dib told him how (The name thing. Also, Duncan learned to resist The Voice from his <15 year old student?)
-There are others, but that's all I can think of right now.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:12

Ahem....

:cylon101:

Hayt was a ghola.

A reanimated cadaver.

All after were technically CLONES (Grown from cells of the original)
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

RedHeadKevin
Posts: 66
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 19:45
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby RedHeadKevin » 25 Aug 2009 23:17

True, but they were all Gholas. SO I'm counting Hayt as the same kind of gholas as the rest of the Duncans, grown from the cells of the original Duncan Idaho, rather than just a re-animated FrankenDuncan.
I don't recommend anyone drink their thigh pad water. It tastes really bad, like ass and dirt.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:24

RedHeadKevin wrote:True, but they were all Gholas. SO I'm counting Hayt as the same kind of gholas as the rest of the Duncans, grown from the cells of the original Duncan Idaho, rather than just a re-animated FrankenDuncan.


No, only Hayt was a ghola, requiring many months in an axlotl tank to repair the greivous head wound suffered by the Sardaukar sword.

However... (this is probably something McJacket doesn't understand)... Leto II's CLONES were grown from original DI cells.

Where the line is between GHOLA and CLONE is between YOU and FH.

Let's move on...

In HoD and CH:D, the "gholas" were a cell combination of all Duncan cell samples that were available.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:26

Hayt was killed in (trivia question) by Stilgar. Fremen don't give cadavers to Bene Tleilaxu.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

Slugger
Posts: 158
Joined: 11 Aug 2009 20:13

Re: The Duncans

Postby Slugger » 25 Aug 2009 23:30

Freakzilla wrote:Where the line is between GHOLA and CLONE is between YOU and FH.


After CoD, it was my interpretation that a ghola was a clone who had recovered the memories of its former self.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:35

Slugger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Where the line is between GHOLA and CLONE is between YOU and FH.


After CoD, it was my interpretation that a ghola was a clone who had recovered the memories of its former self.


I will let Tamalane explain it for you...

Tamalane frowned. She had disagreed from the first with calling this child a
ghola. Gholas were grown from cells of a cadaver. This was a clone, just as
Scytale was a clone.

~CH:D
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Duncans

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2009 03:37

Freakzilla wrote:Hayt was killed in (trivia question) by Stilgar. Fremen don't give cadavers to Bene Tleilaxu.


in sietch tabr?
to force him into hiding Ghanima from Alia this I'm sure after killing Buer Agraves, Alia's/the baron's lover and insulting Stil with the famous Fremen insults
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Apjak
Posts: 518
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 12:06
Location: Kansas City

Re: The Duncans

Postby Apjak » 26 Aug 2009 07:53

They were all Gholas, grown from cadaver cells of at least one Duncan Idaho that had lived. I like to think that the specialty of the post-Scattering Duncan Ghola is that he was grown with cells of all the Duncan Idahoes that the BT had put out throughout history.
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert

Slugger
Posts: 158
Joined: 11 Aug 2009 20:13

Re: The Duncans

Postby Slugger » 26 Aug 2009 09:41

Freakzilla wrote:
Slugger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Where the line is between GHOLA and CLONE is between YOU and FH.


After CoD, it was my interpretation that a ghola was a clone who had recovered the memories of its former self.


I will let Tamalane explain it for you...

Tamalane frowned. She had disagreed from the first with calling this child a
ghola. Gholas were grown from cells of a cadaver. This was a clone, just as
Scytale was a clone.

~CH:D


So, in theory, you could take samples of a person's cells and clone him. Then, when he dies, re-animate the original, thus making him a ghola. You could reawaken all the copies memories, so you could have several different instances of the same person running around?

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Duncans

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2009 09:51

a ghola by definition is created from cells sampled on a dead body, while a clone is a copy of a living person.
The question being is it possible to awaken genetic memory from a clone?

I think not because FH would have not called them by different names, that's how language works, different names different things(especially with FH's attention to detail and quality)
Then is there a link between the death of the person and the transmission of the genetic memory?

As for the other question is it possible to awaken several instances of the same ghola?
I'd say yes but I think that FH never made it happen, unless I'm severely mistaken only thehacks did it with Scytale trying to awaken his own clone in SoD, and other instances of Pauls too(hey if it's possible in the nudune it probably means it's BS no?)

edit
from the Dune Wiki
Differences between gholas and clones

Though a ghola would at first seem synonymous with a clone, there were some key differences:

* To be considered a true ghola, the being must have been created after the original human had died, whereas a clone can be created while the original human was still alive.
* Gholas possessed most (if not all) of the memories of the source human, thanks to a combination of conditioning and a variant on genetic memory.
* Gholas originally possessed artificial 'metallic' eyes, due to an initial problem with the method of ghola production. This was later resolved, resulting in them possessing natural eyes.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Ghola
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2009 10:03

Reverend Mothers don't have death memories and they have OM.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

Slugger
Posts: 158
Joined: 11 Aug 2009 20:13

Re: The Duncans

Postby Slugger » 26 Aug 2009 10:11

lotek wrote:The question being is it possible to awaken genetic memory from a clone?


Teg recovered his memories in CH:D. His samples were collected by Odrade on-board the no-ship, while he was alive, so technically he'd be a clone. He wouldn't have any memories of his death.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2009 10:15

One argument is (we've had this discussion before) that BT technology could have improved over the series.

Original, as in Hayt's case, they had to bring the corpse back to life and repair it's wounds.

Eventually they got to where they could regrow a clone from a cell sample.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Duncans

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2009 10:19

Freakzilla wrote:Reverend Mothers don't have death memories and they have OM.

but they can Share while gholas don't to my knowledge
Do you think the genetic memory of gholas and OM are the same?

Ok the Spice Agony of RM and the shock trigger of gholas work are similar, but then OM goes back in the genetic line whereas gholas "only" remember their own.


Concerning the difference between a clone and a ghola is it just the origin of the cells used that changes the "label"? Otherwise they'd be the same thing?(memories awakened even partially is still an amazing prowess)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2009 10:28

lotek wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Reverend Mothers don't have death memories and they have OM.

but they can Share while gholas don't to my knowledge
Do you think the genetic memory of gholas and OM are the same?


No, but similar. Take note that RMs can only Share in the spice trance, or with death imminent.

If you cloned a RM, and she went though The Agony again, would she be able to Share her serial memories?

:shock:

Ok the Spice Agony of RM and the shock trigger of gholas work are similar, but then OM goes back in the genetic line whereas gholas "only" remember their own.


Right.

Concerning the difference between a clone and a ghola is it just the origin of the cells used that changes the "label"? Otherwise they'd be the same thing?(memories awakened even partially is still an amazing prowess)


You've got Franks definition right up there ^^^ :wink:
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Duncans

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2009 11:41

Freakzilla wrote:No, but similar. Take note that RMs can only Share in the spice trance, or with death imminent.

If you cloned a RM, and she went though The Agony again, would she be able to Share her serial memories?

:shock:

Would a cloned RM without her own memories back survive the Agony?
Or maybe the Agony would provide the required lever, and then with her memories back she'd be able to transform the Water of Life and survive(as time streches for RMs during Agony plenty of time to do all that), in the contrary she'd die(but a ghola/clone wouldn't die just from failing to retrieve its memories)
Then she'd be fully restored and able to Share if need be :mrgreen:


Freakzilla wrote:
Concerning the difference between a clone and a ghola is it just the origin of the cells used that changes the "label"? Otherwise they'd be the same thing?(memories awakened even partially is still an amazing prowess)


You've got Franks definition right up there ^^^ :wink:

it was a bit confusing as at first I thought that "ghola" meant "clone" in the Duniverse...
and at the beginning gholas were just like copies of one's person appearance without any conscious knowledge of their genetic past, and they had those cool metallic eyes too.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2009 11:48

Her body wouldn't have the prana-bindu conditioning required, her unrestored ghola/clone would have to undergo BG training again.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: The Duncans

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2009 11:56

good point!
I forgot about that not so small detail!
SHAME SHAME :lol:
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18133
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: The Duncans

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2009 12:20

The good thing is, she wouldn't remember the first fifty years or so of training until surviving The Agony!
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Jul 2010 10:58

Alright, gotta bump this. I'm reading GEoD right now, and if Duncan in that book is NOT a clone of Hayt then FH was either messing with everyone or just plain messed up. I realize that the Tleilax wouldn't have been able to get cells from his dead body, but what about stealing some during Hayt's life?

I haven't found anything in GEoD that shows Duncan being surprised at all by Muad'dib (different than Paul)- he recognizes "Muad'dib's knife" is a good example, and he remembers the twins as children. If he was just a clone of the original he would have not just been shocked by Leto II, he would have been completely lost, as he would have known nothing about what Paul did with the Fremen.

WTF? What was the concensus on this issue?
Image

User avatar
Superdog
Posts: 150
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 23:09

Re: The Duncans

Postby Superdog » 07 Jul 2010 11:09

Just because they couldn't get his corpse doesn't mean they couldn't have Hayt samples from various points in his life. Whether it be hair or something from his Imperial bedchambers or the blood from his quasi-suicide attempt when the Corrinos have him. He wouldn't have death memories but would have 90%+ of Hayt's life.

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Jul 2010 11:43

That's what I think as well, but I recalled the general agreement here being that Duncan was not Hayt - which doesn't jive with the book in my opinion so I wanted to revisit the discussion.

It's really bugging me as I read it actually. I'm hoping that I remember the concensus incorrectly, because everyone here is pretty smart and wouldn't have decide that without evidence, but it is driving me nuts as I read the book.
Image

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: The Duncans

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Jul 2010 13:31

I hayt to beat a dead horse, but does anyone dissagree that the Duncans from Leto's time were indeed clones of Hayt, not the original Duncan corpse?
Image

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: The Duncans

Postby D Pope » 08 Jul 2010 16:06

Freak & merkin muffley covered it briefly in ch 6, GEoD. I was hung up on how he remembered the twins being born, same stuff though. As much as I disliked the answer I got, I could find no fault with their logic & just dropped it thinking there were copious discussions elsewhere. It's not often you hear an OH suggest that FH made a mistake.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos


Return to “˲”