Hayt

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Freakzilla
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Oct 2009 21:00

Arrrmanda wrote:You would think that trying to make him look sinister would impede their larger goal though. Which was to have Paul trust him and for Hayt to kill him. I think I remember reading something like that too though.


He TOLD Paul he was intended to kill him. :roll:
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Re: Hayt

Postby Arrrmanda » 02 Oct 2009 21:02

Of course, and they knew his prescience would eventually reveal that from the start, so it was never a rouse. But why make him look sinister on purpose?

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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Oct 2009 21:03

Arrrmanda wrote:Of course, and they knew his prescience would eventually reveal that from the start, so it was never a rouse. But why make him look sinister on purpose?


The BT always allow a way out of their traps.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Arrrmanda » 02 Oct 2009 21:09

I'm still not buying the sinister thing. 8) I think it was just what Laphtiya heard in the audio book. I know I would improve Duncan if I had a clone :D

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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 02 Oct 2009 22:06

The sinister part was psychological... Regardless if Paul was prescient and would have known Hayt's purpose or not, the eyes still aided in how Hayt was perceived by the court and thus how Paul would have to interact with Hayt to appease court opinion.

He knew it was a trap, the court knew he was a trap, and everyone was wary simply because everything proved that... How the trap would come about, no one knew. Paul was pretty messed up with the whole Chani coming back option.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Arrrmanda » 03 Oct 2009 00:53

I agree with everything you said except for this part:
Redstar wrote:how Paul would have to interact with Hayt to appease court opinion.

Didn't Paul tell the court basically to "eff" off regarding the whole Hayt thing?

I really need to read DM next because I can hardly remember them talking about the eyes. For some reason I can't understand at all why the BT chose to use the metal eyes in Hayt. If their larger goal (plans within plans and what not) was for the Hayt ghola to regain his Duncan memories, wouldn't it serve better for him to have Duncan's eyes?...for him to have a more Duncan like appearance, thus making those who knew him as Duncan more receptive (except perhaps the Fremen), and on top of it all make it harder for Hayt himself to resist remembering?

And I would think Paul seeing Hayt become Duncan with Duncan's complete appearance, would make it harder for him to not want a Chani ghola. Hayt may have remembered and returned to being Duncan but he still had those metal eyes.

I think what I am trying to get at is that you are probably right on with this idea:
Redstar wrote:The sinister part was psychological


If they were hoping the ghola would regain his memories and they could try and trap Paul with a Chani ghola, then the only reason Hayt had those metal eyes was simply arrogance on their part. Hayt walking around freely through Paul's keep when everyone knew he was sent to kill him by his enemies, was most definitely a big F U.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 03 Oct 2009 01:18

Arrrmanda wrote:I agree with everything you said except for this part:
Redstar wrote:how Paul would have to interact with Hayt to appease court opinion.

Didn't Paul tell the court basically to "eff" off regarding the whole Hayt thing?

I believe so, but my point was everyone knew what Paul knew... So he would have to act a little differently because of it.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Idwal Brugh » 16 Sep 2010 16:00

Re: metal eyes - almost certainly because of the creep factor. They see things human eyes don't see (paraphrased) and they're borderline technology on top of another borderline technology (ghola). Meant to disquiet and destabilize the Atreides psychologically.

Re: the name Hayt - my hypothesis is that it is pronounced as "chate" (the "ch" being like "chanukkah"). My reasoning is that the word "hayat" (pronounce chey-yaht) is "Life" in Arabic and the BT are revealed to be heirs of ancient Islam in Heretics. Additionally, Arabic Islamic terms are heavily employed in the Dune universe. Also, "chayt" is the 8th letter of the Hebrew alefbet and represents life, the number 8, and a slew of kabbalistic significance I don't have to disseminate here. F. Herbert was fond of linguistic double entendres, one of my majors delights in his work.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Serkanner » 16 Sep 2010 16:18

Kabbala ... just what we need.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 16 Sep 2010 16:19

You don't think the name "Hayt" means "hate"?

Paul weighed the answer. Truthsense told him Edric sincerely believed the
ghola to be Idaho. But there was more. The waters of Time through which this
oracular Steersman moved suggested dangers without revealing them. Hayt. The
Tleilaxu name spoke of peril
. Paul felt himself tempted to reject the gift. Even
as he felt the temptation, he knew he couldn't choose that way. This flesh made
demands on House Atreides -- a fact the enemy well knew.


Does "life" speak of peril? :?
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Re: Hayt

Postby Idwal Brugh » 16 Sep 2010 16:29

"Hate" in English was obviously part of Herbert's entendres for the Duncan-ghola. "Hate" as a word would probably be long gone by Duncan's time.

And you're right to dismiss the kabbala...that quagmire could go on endlessly.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Idwal Brugh » 16 Sep 2010 16:31

Freakzilla wrote:Does "life" speak of peril? :?


In that time, hell yes!!

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Re: Hayt

Postby Omphalos » 16 Sep 2010 17:15

Idwal Brugh wrote:Re: metal eyes - almost certainly because of the creep factor. They see things human eyes don't see (paraphrased) and they're borderline technology on top of another borderline technology (ghola). Meant to disquiet and destabilize the Atreides psychologically.

Re: the name Hayt - my hypothesis is that it is pronounced as "chate" (the "ch" being like "chanukkah"). My reasoning is that the word "hayat" (pronounce chey-yaht) is "Life" in Arabic and the BT are revealed to be heirs of ancient Islam in Heretics. Additionally, Arabic Islamic terms are heavily employed in the Dune universe. Also, "chayt" is the 8th letter of the Hebrew alefbet and represents life, the number 8, and a slew of kabbalistic significance I don't have to disseminate here. F. Herbert was fond of linguistic double entendres, one of my majors delights in his work.


Interesting take. This place is getting dirty with linguists. Should make for some good conversation. If you look around you will see that we have a number of threads on linguistics and langauge issues. And welcome, by the way!

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Re: Hayt

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Sep 2010 17:35

I thought there was a passage where someone is thinking to themselves that it is pronounced as hate - then again, my memory is not perfect, and your comment about the word hate probably being out of circulation by then is true (though Paul would remember the work through OM).
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Re: Hayt

Postby merkin muffley » 16 Sep 2010 22:52

Idwal Brugh wrote:"Hate" as a word would probably be long gone by Duncan's time.



I've gotta be missing something, here, because I can think of two instances, off the top of my head, of "hate" being spoken as dialogue:

Reverend Mohiam in DUNE says to Paul: "You hate us a little, eh?"

And Jessica says to Dr. Yueh, "When you said Harkonnens, I didn't know you had such reason to hate them."



uh...wut? :?


EDIT: Also, in DM, Paul says, "Hayt -- there's a name inspires caution." Because it sounds like "hate."
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Re: Hayt

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2010 00:19

merkin muffley wrote:
Idwal Brugh wrote:"Hate" as a word would probably be long gone by Duncan's time.



I've gotta be missing something, here, because I can think of two instances, off the top of my head, of "hate" being spoken as dialogue:

Reverend Mohiam in DUNE says to Paul: "You hate us a little, eh?"

And Jessica says to Dr. Yueh, "When you said Harkonnens, I didn't know you had such reason to hate them."



Umm, it's assumed that they are not speaking English in those passages, it is being translated to English for us readers.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SandChigger » 17 Sep 2010 00:51

Idwal Brugh wrote:Re: the name Hayt - my hypothesis is that it is pronounced as "chate" (the "ch" being like "chanukkah"). My reasoning is that the word "hayat" (pronounce chey-yaht) is "Life" in Arabic...

The only problem with that is that ḥayah is written with tâ' marbûṭa, meaning the final sound is h unless a suffix is added (at which time it becomes t).

Serkanner wrote:Kabbala ... just what we need.

Quite. Who's that ninny that posts about it over on DumbNovels?

:laughing:

Just popped over to look for him and got this:

Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 104 in /data/17/0/142/143/305469/user/310695/htdocs/phpBB2/db/mysql4.php on line 48

Warning: mysql_error(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link resource in /data/17/0/142/143/305469/user/310695/htdocs/phpBB2/db/mysql4.php on line 330

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phpBB : Critical Error

Could not connect to the database

Any Kabbalistic significance in any of those numbers? :lol:

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Re: Hayt

Postby merkin muffley » 17 Sep 2010 02:13

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Umm, it's assumed that they are not speaking English in those passages, it is being translated to English for us readers.



:oops: :doh:
Shit!


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Re: Hayt

Postby MrFlibble » 17 Sep 2010 04:55

I, too, have always assumed that the significance of the name "Hayt" lies in the fact that it sounds like "hate" (otherwise Paul's comment makes little sense). It can be imagined that either
a) the Galach word for 'hate' sounded exactly like Hayt/hate in English (which is not impossible; a well-known and often-cited example is that the word for 'bad' in modern Persian sounds very close to the English word "bad", although there is no relation between the two words whatsoever),
b) just like the character's speech is "translated" into English for us readers, the name Hayt is "translated" as well to give us the idea that the ghola's name was homophonic with the Galach word for 'hate', whichever this might be (also a possibility; for example, the meaningful nickname of Professor Unrat's eponymous character was derived from his real name, Raat, and in the Russian translation (I suppose this could have happened in any translation to another language as well), "Raat" was replaced with a different German name to suit the nickname which was translated into Russian to retain its meaningfulness) or
c) we have to assume that the name Hayt sounds like, or is associated with, some other unknown word or notion in the Dune universe (not necessarily a Galach word, by the way), which implies menace, danger or misfortune.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SandChigger » 17 Sep 2010 08:02

:clap: :clap: :clap:

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Re: Hayt

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2010 12:51

Don't forget option D, which I mentioned - that the BT deliberately chose a word from a dead language that they knew only people with OM would recognise.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Sep 2010 12:54

E. Princess Irulan made it all up.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Idwal Brugh » 17 Sep 2010 16:31

I, too, have always assumed that the significance of the name "Hayt" lies in the fact that it sounds like "hate" (otherwise Paul's comment makes little sense).


Are you that lacking in imagination? He DOES have command of full OM, and that would provide access to nearly every human language.

a well-known and often-cited example is that the word for 'bad' in modern Persian sounds very close to the English word "bad", although there is no relation between the two words whatsoever),

Please provide your reference as that is wholly false. Both Farsi and English are indo-european languages and have more in common with each other than Farsi does with Arabic. Many cognates exist.

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Re: Hayt

Postby TheDukester » 17 Sep 2010 17:50

What's an English word that sounds like "asshole"?

Oh, right. "Asshole."

Never mind.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Tleszer » 18 Sep 2010 00:03

:lol:
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie


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