Hayt

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Redstar
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 19:18

Mandy wrote:You don't think FH was aware of what was going on in the scientific world?

I'm not saying that. I'm sure he was more aware of the advances in the scientific community than most people at the time, though I find it far more likely that his interest and research into that community extended so far as linguistics, history, culture, and environment. Anything else would be secondary.

The reason I think this is because Hayt was a ghola, not a clone. Clones weren't even mentioned as an alternative. You might notice that FH had the concepts of genetic memory and prescience heavily twined into his story, and those aren't exactly scientifically-sound. Even at his time I'm sure they were more common perception rather than scientific opinion.

My point is that gholas, like genetic memory and prescience, were concepts though up solely as plot devices (akin to the BJ) to tell the story. I imagine that once FH started GEoD and decided he wanted to use Duncan as a character again he would have realized he wrote himself into a wall: gholas are cadavers of the actual people they represent. Hayt would have long rotted by then. So it's very likely that he remembered cloning, which was then becoming a popular topic, and then began research into it. It fixed his problem easily enough and didn't contradict anything before.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0122429/history/history.htm
1952: Briggs and King cloned tadpoles

Robert Briggs and Thomas King cloned northern leopard frog using nuclear transfer.
The purpose of the experiment was to study the activation and deactivation of genes during cell development. Using a glass pipette with a width between the cell’s nucleus and the cell’s width, King removed the nucleus from a blastula cell, an embryo cell during the period in which the embryo is only about 8 – 16 thousand cells. The outer part of the cell was crushed and broke away as the nucleus is sucked into the pipette. A glass needle was then used to remove the egg’s own nucleus, and was replace with the nucleus of the blastula cell. Finally, Briggs and King cloned 27 tadpoles from 104 nuclear transfers. Those few surviving tadpoles cloned from differentiated cells were abnormal, leading Briggs and King to believe that adult differentiated cells cannot be used to clone an organism.

That still sounds more like forced twinning to me rather than the modern concept of cloning that FH used.

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Re: Hayt

Postby SadisticCynic » 21 Sep 2009 11:39

In Dune Messiah Hayt says "there are things I must do as a ghola that I would not do as a man." Does anyone know what he means by this? The wording seems to suggest there is some physical difference between man and ghola, rather than simply the memories of the person being absent.

Usually when thinking of gholas they are identical to the 'predecessor'; maybe something is changed in reanimation...

Or maybe I'm way off. :)
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Re: Hayt

Postby chanilover » 21 Sep 2009 17:42

SandRider wrote:Hayt & Bijaz are two sides of the same coin.


What do you mean by that, Sandrider?
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Sep 2009 19:39

chanilover wrote:
SandRider wrote:Hayt & Bijaz are two sides of the same coin.


What do you mean by that, Sandrider?


I think Bijaz said that in DM.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SandRider » 21 Sep 2009 23:43

they were both weapons aimed at paul
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Re: Hayt

Postby chanilover » 22 Sep 2009 16:33

Oh I remember now, they were both grown in the same tank.

Were the Duncan gholas 'decanted' fully grown or as babies? In God Emperor, replacement adult Duncans seem to have been available fairly shortly after their predecessors were killed or died, but in Heretics the Duncan ghola is a child.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Sep 2009 16:35

I think the BT just knew the GE's habbits and were constantly growing replacements.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SadisticCynic » 22 Sep 2009 16:50

Hayt is a reanimated cadaver and as such was decanted as an adult. About the God Emperor period gholas, they usually don't remember anything from the previous gholas lives and so presumably must be grown from cells of the original Duncan.
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Re: Hayt

Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 Sep 2009 10:07

Hayt is a reanimated cadaver and as such was decanted as an adult. About the God Emperor period gholas, they usually don't remember anything from the previous gholas lives and so presumably must be grown from cells of the original Duncan.


Don't forget that Duncan regains all the memories of all the gholas when he is with Murbella in Heretics. I'm assuming that this means he also got the Hayt and Original Duncan memories. This says to me that the cells used to grow Heretics Duncan were taken from each ghola as it came out of the tank. Heretics Duncan was a ghola of a ghola of a ghola.... back for 5,000 years or so.

IN GEoD, and especially Heretics, Duncan seems to remember stuff that Original Duncan didn't know. In GEoD (I think,) Duncan remembers the Twins as babies, and some other things only Hayt would have known. In Heretics, Duncan mentions that he learned to resist the voice from Muad'Dib. This raised a question for me: Did Original Duncan learn to resist the Voice from Paul, back on Caladan, when Paul was less than 15 years old, or did Hayt learn to resist Voice from Emperor Muad'dib?

I always figured that Hayt was re-animated Original Duncan, and the rest of the gholas were cloned/grown/made from cells from Hayt, since the Original Duncan body died with Hayt. The rest of the Duncans were made from Hayt's cells, and Hayt's successor's cells, and so on and so on.

I don't think we need to make a distinction between "Ghola" and "Clone" in the Dune universe. The same technology (Axlotl tanks) that was used to re-animate a body, and repair its damaged cells, could be used to grown the cells from scratch. The only difference is in the amount of cells the Tleilaxu had to start with, a whole body or just a skin scraping.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SadisticCynic » 23 Sep 2009 11:44

I knew about some of that but I wasn't sure whether to go into it or not. Doesn't Duncan from CH:D also have blank spots in the memories? So not necessarily from all of the Duncan gholas, unless some were unretrievable. I also thought that the cells of original Duncan would also apply to those of Hayt he technically still is original Duncan.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Sep 2009 11:46

SadisticCynic wrote:I knew about some of that but I wasn't sure whether to go into it or not. Doesn't Duncan from CH:D also have blank spots in the memories? So not necessarily from all of the Duncan gholas, unless some were unretrievable. I also thought that the cells of original Duncan would also apply to those of Hayt he technically still is original Duncan.


He has all the memories but doesn't have cells from every ghola.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SadisticCynic » 23 Sep 2009 11:48

Oh, its that way round. Ok. That just makes it more confusing. I guess that's why this can be a strong point of discussion... :)
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Re: Hayt

Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 Sep 2009 12:41

He has all the memories but doesn't have cells from every ghola.


If he doesn't have cells from a previous ghola, wouldn't it stand to reason that he wouldn't have its memories?
IT would be like backing up your data on your computer, then re-formatting your hard drive a month later. You'd have everything you backed up, but you'd lose that month's worth of new stuff. Same with Duncan. A new ghola's memories would essentially "skip" one generation of memories.

SO, If the last Duncan has ALL the previous ghola's memories, he's made from cells from ALL the previous gholas. If there are blank spots, they could be where the cells used "jumped" a generation.
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Re: Hayt

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Sep 2009 12:47

This is one of the big arguments about Dune, did FH intentionally imply some kind of mystical aspect by giving Duncan ALL the memories, but NOT all the cells?
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Re: Hayt

Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 Sep 2009 12:55

This is a question, not an argument: Where does it say that Duncan either a.) doesn't have all the cells or b.) Doesn't have all the memories?

Also, "blank spots" in his memories could be caused by times when there WERE no Duncan Idaho gholas. I'm assuming that after the Duncan in GEoD died, there wasn't much need for Idahos for a few years before the BG started raising them.
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Re: Hayt

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Sep 2009 13:08

I don't have the PDFs to search on this machine, I'm sure someone else knows for sure though.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Apjak » 23 Sep 2009 14:09

The deal about this was that he remembered lives from which it would have been impossible to obtain post-mortem cells. If Frank was going to answer that later: he was already pretty far along the Kwisatz Haderach path and could see the past, or it was simply Quantum Magic.
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Re: Hayt

Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 Sep 2009 14:35

The deal about this was that he remembered lives from which it would have been impossible to obtain post-mortem cells. If Frank was going to answer that later: he was already pretty far along the Kwisatz Haderach path and could see the past, or it was simply Quantum Magic.


a.) how would it be impossible to obtain post-mortem cells?
b.) This lends more credence to my idea that they got cell scrapings of the gholas right as they came out of the tanks, then kept them on ice, so they'd always have "fresh" ghola cells to grow.
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Re: Hayt

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Sep 2009 14:51

RedHeadKevin wrote:
The deal about this was that he remembered lives from which it would have been impossible to obtain post-mortem cells. If Frank was going to answer that later: he was already pretty far along the Kwisatz Haderach path and could see the past, or it was simply Quantum Magic.


a.) how would it be impossible to obtain post-mortem cells?
b.) This lends more credence to my idea that they got cell scrapings of the gholas right as they came out of the tanks, then kept them on ice, so they'd always have "fresh" ghola cells to grow.


"a" I feel like a fool but I can't remember the circumstances, but there was at least 1 that no cells could have been taken from. Someone else will fill this in...

"b" does nothing to explain the memories though, because the cells would have been taken before the events occured, thus no memories.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Apjak » 23 Sep 2009 15:26

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
RedHeadKevin wrote:a.) how would it be impossible to obtain post-mortem cells?


"a" I feel like a fool but I can't remember the circumstances, but there was at least 1 that no cells could have been taken from. Someone else will fill this in...


Duncan's internal monologue just states that there were memories from past selves that there was no way of recovering. It also puts a lot of emphasis on the many many times that he died at the hands (or lack thereof) of the God Emperor. So if we must conjecture, there were probably times that the God Emperor killed him and disposed of/laid to rest the remains in the inner sanctum of his complex which was inaccessible to Bene Tleilaxians unless we have some super face dancers early (possible theory). Also I'm sure that Duncan's also died deaths that would have destroyed all "earthly" remains i. e. fire. To flesh this theory out maybe there's something good in the DE.
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Re: Hayt

Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 Sep 2009 16:28

"b" does nothing to explain the memories though, because the cells would have been taken before the events occured, thus no memories.

Duh.... I didn't even think of this! It's been a long day.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 12:56

FH in Chapterhouse Dune wrote: Questions? Mentat demands flowed through Idaho's mind. He let the questions he had asked himself so many times move of themselves, forming their patterns. What did the Tleilaxu seek in one? They could not have included cells from all of his ghola-selves for this incarnation. Yet...he had all of the memories. What cosmic linkage accumulated all of those lives in this one self? Was that the clue to the visions that beset him in the Great Hold? Half-memories formed in his mind: his body in warm fluid, fed by tubes, massaged by machines, probed and questioned by Tleilaxu observers. He sensed murmurous responses from semi-dormant selves. The words had no meaning. It was as though he listened to a foreign language coming from his own lips but he knew it was ordinary Galach.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Laphtiya » 02 Oct 2009 07:46

lotek wrote:
Mandy wrote:
lotek wrote:about the tleilaxu eyes:
Isn't there a quote implying they're always made of metal?


That's not what I was talking about, though .. later Duncan gholas have real eyes.

So if the BT have a specific reason for giving him metallic eyes it has to be the same for every other ghola they created.


Was listening to the Dune Messiah audio book recently and I am sure it said that the Tleilaxu gave gohlas metal eyes because they believed that they were an improvement over the originals. Something Paul thought was strange because if it were true then why didn't all Tleilaxu have them.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Oct 2009 20:19

I think they gave him metal eyes to make him seem more sinister. I could swear there's something in DM about that.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Arrrmanda » 02 Oct 2009 20:59

You would think that trying to make him look sinister would impede their larger goal though. Which was to have Paul trust him and for Hayt to kill him. I think I remember reading something like that too though.


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