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Re: Hayt

Postby inhuien » 04 Sep 2009 15:57

Mandy wrote:Did Bijaz have metal eyes? I don't remember anything about every ghola having metal eyes.

Bijaz was a Ghola, how did I miss that. There's a quote about them coming out the same tank, or is my recall polluted be the mini?
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Re: Hayt

Postby lotek » 04 Sep 2009 16:09

SandRider wrote:I think he's cute.

looks like the current Governor of Texas


he has no mastery of genetics I suppose?

inhuien wrote:
Mandy wrote:Did Bijaz have metal eyes? I don't remember anything about every ghola having metal eyes.

Bijaz was a Ghola, how did I miss that. There's a quote about them coming out the same tank, or is my recall polluted be the mini?


no that's right, thanks to Mandy for getting us back on track :)

Now I don't have my books with me, is there a description of Bijaz that clarifies that point?

And what about the BT not being able to(or pretending not being able to) produce gholas with human eyes?
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Re: Hayt

Postby Mandy » 04 Sep 2009 19:02

This is when Otheym gives Bijaz to Paul:

A Tleilaxu toy, learned and alert, Paul thought. The Bene Tleilax never threw away something this valuable. He turned, studied the dwarf. Round melange eyes returned his stare.


So we know the Tleilax can grow beings in a tank with eyes. It's still possible that Duncan was too damaged and that his eyes couldn't be regrown, but I think it makes more sense that the Tleilax wanted him to have metal eyes because they'd make everyone around him uneasy.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Sep 2009 19:12

Mandy wrote:...but I think it makes more sense that the Tleilax wanted him to have metal eyes because they'd make everyone around him uneasy.


Doesn't Alia or someone suggest that in DM?
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Re: Hayt

Postby Mandy » 04 Sep 2009 19:20

I can't remember.. can't find it either, but she probably did.


inhuien wrote:There's a quote about them coming out the same tank, or is my recall polluted be the mini?


Nope, that's in the book. Bijaz tells Hayt they are like brothers, and that they came out of the same tank.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SandRider » 05 Sep 2009 00:44

I'm too drunk to think about this clearly, but Hayt's eyes were some kinda foreshadowing of the stoneburner attack ....
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Re: Hayt

Postby inhuien » 05 Sep 2009 03:49

Mandy wrote:Bijaz tells Hayt they are like brothers, and that they came out of the same tank.

That's the one, thanks Mandy. But just because they were both decanted from the same tank does that mean that they're both Ghola. The vile, dirty, stupid Tleilax used their Tank for more that purely Ghola production,
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 03:51

inhuien wrote:
Mandy wrote:Bijaz tells Hayt they are like brothers, and that they came out of the same tank.

That's the one, thanks Mandy. But just because they were both decanted from the same tank does that mean that they're both Ghola. The vile, dirty, stupid Tleilax used their Tank for more that purely Ghola production,

Right before Bijaz was killed by order of Paul he exclaims in excitement about the possibility of having his memories returned like Hayt. I'm sure there were earlier instances that suggested or outright stated he was a ghola.

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Re: Hayt

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2009 05:21

inhuien wrote:
Mandy wrote:Bijaz tells Hayt they are like brothers, and that they came out of the same tank.

That's the one, thanks Mandy. But just because they were both decanted from the same tank does that mean that they're both Ghola. The vile, dirty, stupid Tleilax used their Tank for more that purely Ghola production,


they used them to create artificial spice and gholas, what else?

Would coming from a tank mean you're something else than a ghola?
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Re: Hayt

Postby inhuien » 05 Sep 2009 05:36

Here's the quote from the end of Dune Messiah and it's entirely convincing.
Frank Herbert in Dune Messiah wrote:"Scytale is dead," Paul said.

"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts – all of them. It needs only the right trigger."

"Trigger?" Paul asked.

"The compulsion to kill you," Idaho said, rage thick in his voice. "Mentat computation: They found that I thought of you as the son I never had. Rather than slay you, the true Duncan Idaho would take over the ghola body. But… it might have failed. Tell me, dwarf, if your plan had failed, if I'd killed him, what then?"

However he was far from being an ordinary Ghola, If such a thing can be said to exist.
Frank Herbert in Dune Messiah wrote:"Bijaz, what do you fear?" Paul asked.

"I fear the spirit seeking me now," Bijaz muttered. Perspiration stood out on his forehead. His cheeks twitched. "I fear the one who thinks not and will have no body except mine – and that one gone back into itself! I fear the things I see and the things I do not see."

This dwarf does possess the power of prescience, Paul thought. Bijaz shared the terrifying oracle. Did he share the oracle's fate, as well? How potent was the dwarf's power? Did he have the little prescience of those who dabbled in the Dune Tarot? Or was it something greater? How much had he seen?
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Re: Hayt

Postby inhuien » 05 Sep 2009 05:42

lotek wrote:Would coming from a tank mean you're something else than a ghola?

Tanks were used to create their entire plethora of tailored genetic products from Face Dancers to Gholas to twisted Mentats to more tanks, at least that has always been my understanding.

That said Bijaz is a Ghola.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 05:43

inhuien wrote:However he was far from being an ordinary Ghola, If such a thing can be said to exist.
Frank Herbert in Dune Messiah wrote:"Bijaz, what do you fear?" Paul asked.

"I fear the spirit seeking me now," Bijaz muttered. Perspiration stood out on his forehead. His cheeks twitched. "I fear the one who thinks not and will have no body except mine – and that one gone back into itself! I fear the things I see and the things I do not see."

This dwarf does possess the power of prescience, Paul thought. Bijaz shared the terrifying oracle. Did he share the oracle's fate, as well? How potent was the dwarf's power? Did he have the little prescience of those who dabbled in the Dune Tarot? Or was it something greater? How much had he seen?

I think it's pretty obvious here that Bijaz was the failed Bene Tleilax KH.

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Re: Hayt

Postby inhuien » 05 Sep 2009 06:08

No I don't think that's supported by the interpretation of Bijaz being a Ghola, also the Bene Tleilax killed their KH.

Why do you think he was a failed KH, the only use of that term referred to the Count Hasimir Fenring.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 06:14

inhuien wrote:No I don't think that's supported by the interpretation of Bijaz being a Ghola, also the Bene Tleilax killed their KH.

Why do you think he was a failed KH, the only use of that term referred to the Count Hasimir Fenring.

Well I was just joking, but you're mistaken that the Tleilax killed their KH... Their KH killed himself. I'm sure that KH was also labeled "failed", though I don't have quotes like you guys do.

Bijaz' dialogue in that quote leans more towards general prescience, but I also got a sense he was fearing his own personality overtaking him akin to possession, or actual OM possession. That sounds to me like what the Tleilaxu KH feared and what ultimately led to his suicide.

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Re: Hayt

Postby lotek » 05 Sep 2009 06:46

inhuien wrote:
lotek wrote:Would coming from a tank mean you're something else than a ghola?

Tanks were used to create their entire plethora of tailored genetic products from Face Dancers to Gholas to twisted Mentats to more tanks, at least that has always been my understanding.

That said Bijaz is a Ghola.



woops my fail...
of course they'd use them for Face Dancers!

Stoopid me :whistle:
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Re: Hayt

Postby inhuien » 05 Sep 2009 07:15

Redstar wrote:Well I was just joking, but you're mistaken that the Tleilax killed their KH... Their KH killed himself. I'm sure that KH was also labeled "failed", though I don't have quotes like you guys do.

Bijaz' dialogue in that quote leans more towards general prescience, but I also got a sense he was fearing his own personality overtaking him akin to possession, or actual OM possession. That sounds to me like what the Tleilaxu KH feared and what ultimately led to his suicide.

Sorry I didn't realise that you were joking, how could I. And don't you think that the spirit that Bijaz feared is his original self memories, were he any kind of KH Paul would know that.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 07:52

inhuien wrote:
Redstar wrote:Well I was just joking, but you're mistaken that the Tleilax killed their KH... Their KH killed himself. I'm sure that KH was also labeled "failed", though I don't have quotes like you guys do.

Bijaz' dialogue in that quote leans more towards general prescience, but I also got a sense he was fearing his own personality overtaking him akin to possession, or actual OM possession. That sounds to me like what the Tleilaxu KH feared and what ultimately led to his suicide.

Sorry I didn't realise that you were joking, how could I. And don't you think that the spirit that Bijaz feared is his original self memories, were he any kind of KH Paul would know that.

The joke is usually people's reaction to thinking I really believe what I say. (Looking at you, Chig)


I don't think that's what he feared, since he was pretty happy at the end of DM about the possibility he'd get them back. The "spirit" could very well be an ancestor(s), or something else completely, and since Bijaz was never awakened we don't know what that fear entails. Bijaz himself probably didn't fully know.

I don't think Paul would know it at all. Realize that there were no Tleilaxu in the BG breeding lines, so OM memory identifying Bijaz is out. Prescience is a big factor, since prescients can't see each other, so Paul could have just did that and if Bijaz wasn't "there", then he'd probably be a KH. (I assume at this time, without the Siona gene, there'd be a variation in how a prescient senses a BG vs a Guild Navigator vs a KH)

But you also have to consider that Bijaz was an unawakened ghola, so he wouldn't have undergone the Spice Agony to fully activate his latent prescience. What Paul senses and what Bijaz taps into is merely unfocused power. Both the BG and Spacing Guild obviously sensed Paul in a different way before and after he "became" a KH through the Agony. I don't think Paul could have fully known unless Bijaz did have his memories returned and either told Paul, or underwent the Agony.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Mandy » 05 Sep 2009 14:31

inhuien wrote:
Mandy wrote:Bijaz tells Hayt they are like brothers, and that they came out of the same tank.

That's the one, thanks Mandy. But just because they were both decanted from the same tank does that mean that they're both Ghola. The vile, dirty, stupid Tleilax used their Tank for more that purely Ghola production,


Sligs! lol

Well, when I mentioned Bijaz's eyes I was only thinking of the BT being able to grow real eyes in a tank.. but one of the differences between Hayt and Bijaz (I assume) is that Hayt was repaired and reanimated in the tank, and Bijaz was probably grown there from the start. So all these times I've read DM I always assumed that the BT just didn't have the tech to repair Hayt's eyes, but this time it occurred to me that the BT probably did it on purpose.

When reading this series, like most everyone else, I usually pick up on something different each time. Probably why it never gets old. Also, until about 5 yrs ago, I'd never discussed Dune with anyone (never had a computer before that!), so things that others might be tired of talking about are still new to me :P
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Re: Hayt

Postby SadisticCynic » 05 Sep 2009 15:36

Mandy wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Mandy wrote:Bijaz tells Hayt they are like brothers, and that they came out of the same tank.

That's the one, thanks Mandy. But just because they were both decanted from the same tank does that mean that they're both Ghola. The vile, dirty, stupid Tleilax used their Tank for more that purely Ghola production,


Sligs! lol

Well, when I mentioned Bijaz's eyes I was only thinking of the BT being able to grow real eyes in a tank.. but one of the differences between Hayt and Bijaz (I assume) is that Hayt was repaired and reanimated in the tank, and Bijaz was probably grown there from the start. So all these times I've read DM I always assumed that the BT just didn't have the tech to repair Hayt's eyes, but this time it occurred to me that the BT probably did it on purpose.

When reading this series, like most everyone else, I usually pick up on something different each time. Probably why it never gets old. Also, until about 5 yrs ago, I'd never discussed Dune with anyone (never had a computer before that!), so things that others might be tired of talking about are still new to me :P


Isn't it usually thought that the Bene Tleilax have not mastered regrowing from cells yet at this point. In view of that, it is probable Bijaz is also a reanimated corpse.

I find this bit interesting:

"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts – all of them. It needs only the right trigger."


It suggests that even before it was confirmed that gholas could recover memories Bijaz had been reanimated several times already, either in anticipation of the key to reawakening or for some other reason - perhaps continuity of the Bene Tleilax Masters. Something I had never noticed before.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Mandy » 05 Sep 2009 16:00

I don't know if they'd mastered cloning yet, but I don't think the books ever say that they hadn't. They did collect skin cells.. remember Skytale's capsule? They wouldn't have collected all those cells without gholas in mind. If you think about it, they probably cloned from cells first, in the real world scientists have successfully cloned sheep, and cats.

Bijaz was probably a genetic experiment, I won't say "gone wrong" because they did find a use for him. Maybe he was a precursor for the BT masters.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 16:43

Mandy wrote:I don't know if they'd mastered cloning yet, but I don't think the books ever say that they hadn't. They did collect skin cells.. remember Skytale's capsule? They wouldn't have collected all those cells without gholas in mind. If you think about it, they probably cloned from cells first, in the real world scientists have successfully cloned sheep, and cats.

I would imagine the BT were able to clone, or at least once the science became feasible in the real world FH thought about it and said "Yeah, they probably did it all the time". The only reason it wouldn't be described was because it didn't exist at the time of the earlier novels.

An in-universe explanation would be that the science was there, but that clones were neither important enough to the story to be mentioned, and gholas were favoured. Simply put, you can't really do much with a clone. Yes, they'll look exactly like the source, but they're still different. Gholas have the benefit of actually physically being what they once were. That has infinite more appeal to consumers, as well as inciting using that appeal in a negative way as emotional weapons. Note that Hayt did served both purposes in Paul's court.


(Thread split on Bijaz, maybe?)

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Re: Hayt

Postby Mandy » 05 Sep 2009 18:30

Actually scientists cloned a tadpole in 1952.

As far as the series goes, the people in Dune say ghola instead of clone quite often. Duncan is referred to as a ghola all through GEoD, Heretics and Chapterhouse. I just think of it as common usage, only people like Schwangyu would care to make the distinction.

Don't split the thread.. it could still float back around to Hayt.
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Re: Hayt

Postby SandRider » 05 Sep 2009 18:32

Hayt & Bijaz are two sides of the same coin.
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Re: Hayt

Postby Redstar » 05 Sep 2009 18:46

Mandy wrote:Actually scientists cloned a tadpole in 1952.

The most information I can get on that makes it sound more like forced twinning rather than the modern concept of cloning, which is what FH ultimately suggested was performed by the BT.

In any case, the first "actual" cloning was a rabbit ('75), and the first widely known cloning was Dolly the sheep ('86). God-Emperor of Dune (which had the first Duncan clones) was published in '81, a good 12 years after DM and the introduction of the Tleilaxu. Considering cloning wasn't a widely-known concept until Dolly, I find it hard to believe FH knew especially much about the subject when he first came up with gholas. When cloning began spreading into popular knowledge (and since FH as an intellectual/science fiction writer he'd reasonably have a head-start) after Dune Messiah's publication is when he would have decided to retroactively work it into the story in a way that would make us assume it was always possible, but never important.

Mandy wrote:Don't split the thread.. it could still float back around to Hayt.

They've become two different subjects: 1.) Hayt, and, 2.) What was Bijaz'. Obviously related subjects, but they merit their own discussions in threads that wouldn't impede on the other.

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Re: Hayt

Postby Mandy » 05 Sep 2009 19:06

You don't think FH was aware of what was going on in the scientific world?
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0122429/ ... istory.htm
1952: Briggs and King cloned tadpoles

Robert Briggs and Thomas King cloned northern leopard frog using nuclear transfer.
The purpose of the experiment was to study the activation and deactivation of genes during cell development. Using a glass pipette with a width between the cell’s nucleus and the cell’s width, King removed the nucleus from a blastula cell, an embryo cell during the period in which the embryo is only about 8 – 16 thousand cells. The outer part of the cell was crushed and broke away as the nucleus is sucked into the pipette. A glass needle was then used to remove the egg’s own nucleus, and was replace with the nucleus of the blastula cell. Finally, Briggs and King cloned 27 tadpoles from 104 nuclear transfers. Those few surviving tadpoles cloned from differentiated cells were abnormal, leading Briggs and King to believe that adult differentiated cells cannot be used to clone an organism.


The rabbit wasn't even the first mammal cloned.


Personally, I don't mind if a thread has more than one subject. It's how a natural conversation works. If you want a thread dedicated to Bijaz, then start one.
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