Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

[TheDukester]

You can still be monogamous and a perv.

You rang?

[Harq al Ada]

The entire Roman Catholic Church has a thing for "little boys"? Yet more idiotic generalizing. That shit wasn't so widespread, and only appears to be because of exaggeration, lawsuit-mongers, and it happened over many years. Sexual abuse occurs all over and religion rarely has anything to do with it.

I didn't say they were little adults, I said they were treated as such.

What imaginary friend? I don't have one.

Pedophilia is sexual attraction to a prepubescent. Aisha wasn't prepubescent, so it was ephebophilia. My whole point is that it was a political and religious relationship so you can't call Muhammed a pervert when it was custom the world over and not based on a sexual attraction to a child. Watch the videos you linked. It actually brings the whole thing up and covers exactly what I've said, and treated it exactly as I have.

Are you serious about the lawsuit monger thing? it's been happening for roughly 2000 years under the xian banner. what about castrato? is that all made up too? the RCC knew about the little boy humpers and rather than kicking the offenders out of their friggin' twisted little men's club they MOVED the priests to other towns/cities with barely a slap on the wrist so they could start all over with a new batch of kids to hump! RELIGION gives the power that enables people to do it. And I don't doubt that in the not too distant future there will be a similar revelation in Islam.

Pedophilia is sexual desire for a child and 9 (ephebophilia is mid to late adolescents not 9y/o) is most likely prepubescent and he married her at 6!?! A 6 year old girl! SIX YEARS OLD! So he let her ripen a bit before plucking her fruit, what a swell guy. and yah, he and anyone at that time and this time, that engages in a sexual relationship with someone that young is wrong, whether it was divinely sanctioned or convention or for the hell of it. and fuck yah he was attracted to her or do you think he had to get drunk and imagine she was someone his own age in order to get it up? "oh well, I gotta hump her cuz my imaginary friend told me to."

this is ridiculous. I'm not going to be able to convince you that the character in your mythology is a perv and you aren't going to be able to convince me he's not. but my point stands: the Tleilaxu tweaked their canon to except the reality of Leto II.

imaginary friends are gods.

[Redstar]

Are you serious about the lawsuit monger thing?

I am. I'm sure many of those cases were true and deeply unsettling for those involved, but at least some small portion were either imagined or people wanting money out of it. It happens. Things get exaggerated to the point where you can't know the real truth, so it's presumptuous to assume there's some epidemic affecting the Church that causes their priests to be pedophiles. It's just bad logic to say

"Priests molest children
those priests are Catholic
Catholicism is bad"

:lol: it's been happening for roughly 2000 years under the xian banner. what about castrato? is that all made up too?

Xian being... The Chinese city? What are you talking about? And castrato isn't made-up, but what it has to do with religion is beyond me. It was a common occurrence outside and before the Christian spread, so pinning it solely on the Catholic church is ridiculous. The Pope tried to ban it very early, but I suppose one person's actions don't represent the religion at all? (Hint-hint)

the RCC knew about the little boy humpers and rather than kicking the offenders out of their friggin' twisted little men's club they MOVED the priests to other towns/cities with barely a slap on the wrist so they could start all over with a new batch of kids to hump! RELIGION gives the power that enables people to do it. And I don't doubt that in the not too distant future there will be a similar revelation in Islam.

I'm not saying that what happened wasn't wrong, but you act like religion itself is the cause of all these woes. Power doesn't not corrupt. Power attracts the corruptible.

Pedophilia is sexual desire for a child and 9 (ephebophilia is mid to late adolescents not 9y/o) is most likely prepubescent and he married her at 6!?! A 6 year old girl! SIX YEARS OLD! So he let her ripen a bit before plucking her fruit, what a swell guy. and yah, he and anyone at that time and this time, that engages in a sexual relationship with someone that young is wrong, whether it was divinely sanctioned or convention or for the hell of it. and fuck yah he was attracted to her or do you think he had to get drunk and imagine she was someone his own age in order to get it up? "oh well, I gotta hump her cuz my imaginary friend told me to."

Excuse me, hebephilia. Her marriage at such a young age was to ensure virginity, and the wait until her puberty was what he had to do more than a token gesture. We may never really know what his feelings were in that relationship, but to describe him as a pedophile while ignoring the simple circumstances involved and the norm of the time is ignorant.

this is ridiculous. I'm not going to be able to convince you that the character in your mythology is a perv and you aren't going to be able to convince me he's not. but my point stands: the Tleilaxu tweaked their canon to except the reality of Leto II.

imaginary friends are gods.

While I would like to point out that I'm agnostic, so I don't have a supreme "character", the fact that you assumed I did and still went on about my "mythology" and how my supposed god is a "perv" is offensive. You can discuss the subject if you want, but you don't have to resort to attacks. You don't see me attacking (y)our atheism.

[SandChigger]

(RCC, Xian, imaginary friends ... are you being intentionally obtuse in not understanding those?)

OK, so fuck Aisha. Justify Zaynab.

[Redstar]

( )

Well marrying your daughter-in-law was taboo at the time and pretty much still is, it wasn't exactly incest. I imagine he married her for the same reason he instituted multiple wives: to ensure widows' a new husband and protect them from destitution.

Why he personally married her, I don't know, but... keeping the name in the family?

[SandChigger]

She wasn't a widow, Zayd was very much alive and well. And he was a freed slave that Mohammed adopted, not his real son. But the Arabs of the time held them to be the same.

Ole Mo popped by the tent one day looking for Zayd and accidently caught a glimpse of Zaynab running around in her undies.

And was thenceforth shmitten with the bint, as they say. ("And mighty was the tent he could have pitched on that pole! Or countless as the sands the gamals he could have tethered to it!") Zayd eventually picked up on the sitch and asked Mo if he wanted him to divorce her, so Mo could have his shot. Mo bravely said, No, no, no, it mustn't be so! IIRC even Aisha advised the old horn dog to go for it.

Eventually Zayd went ahead and put her away, anyway. And lo and behold, Mo got a call from Big Al telling him it was OK.

It can be SO convenient when you're the one GOD talks to!

[Redstar]

Adopted son, same taboo. Knew it already.

The other part is a cute story though.

[SandChigger]

It's twue, it's twue, it's all so twue!!!

[RedHeadKevin]

The more you folks argue about if Mohammed (PBUH) was a pedophile, or whether the RCC is a bunch of child molesters, or other "historical" accounts of the perversions of ancient religions, the more I see the relevance to the God Emperor. (By "ancient" religions, I mean "stuff involving religion that happened a long time ago," not that the religions are "ancient")

Let's not forget that Leto II took a 10 year-old wife, too. He was 10 at the time as well. (dont' start with the "The Twins were never really children. I'm talking about physical/sexual maturity.) Muad'Dib was 17 when he took Irulan as a wife. We're not only projecting the morals/customs of ancient times on 2009, we're projecting them on to the 10,200s and above. Royalty, especially has had all sorts of creepy peccadillos when it comes to taking brides/concubines/lovers for hundreds (thousands) of years already in 2009. Egyptian Pharaohs took child brides, and were children/teenagers themselves. Cousin-marriage was common in European royalty for political reasons, and lots of them were what we'd call "underage." Historical accounts even put the Virgin Mary at around age 12 or 13 when Jesus was born. Romeo and Juliet, also 13. Even leaders of the 20th century liked the young'uns. Chairman Mao had a thing for deflowering virgins. Moreso than the sexual aspect of taking a child bride, there were other considerations: namely virginity, dowries, or arranged/political marriages.

The real discussion here is the Tlielaxu adoration of the God Emperor. They "adored" him because they knew that Leto could smite their planet quite easily. I'm sure he'd go without Duncans if the Tleilaxu really pissed him off. The whole time, they were biding time until they could unleash the True Faith. They had thier own "Great Belief" and were just waiting to reveal it (which they really bring up in Heretics.) The Tleilaxu religion is "Zensufi," mixing Buddhist ideas with the more mystical aspects of Islam. Even their language, "ISLAMiyat" is a giveaway to their Muslim roots.
The Tlielaxu attitude towards Leto II is similar to the Islamic attitude towards Mohammed (PBUH) or Jesus. Leto was God's Messenger, NOT God Himself. The Tleilaxu are still waiting for their chance to serve The One True God.

[Freakzilla]

Sufi-Zensunni

[SandChigger]

Historical accounts even put the Virgin Mary at around age 12 or 13 when Jesus was born.

That sentence is a thing of beauty.

(Hey, I just figured it out: the Herberts must be Muslims! They're all about profit-worship, too! )

[Freakzilla]

Historical accounts even put the Virgin Mary at around age 12 or 13 when Jesus was born.

That sentence is a thing of beauty.

(Hey, I just figured it out: the Herberts must be Muslims! They're all about profit-worship, too! )

There are historical accounts of Jesus? HOLY SHIT!

[SandChigger]

And a signed affidavit from V. Mary's gynecologist!

[Serkanner]

Historical accounts even put the Virgin Mary at around age 12 or 13 when Jesus was born.

Huh?

Historical accounts of fictional characters?

EDIT: Hadn't seen the follow-up posts.

[Idahopotato]

You guys do know that a 13 year old bride is well old enough when you consider that they usually die in their 30's, if not in child birth. That would make her middle age. Nowadays of course this is seen as sick and demented, not because a 13 year old is not physically mature enough (don't tell me you guys haven't found yourself staring at some 13 year old eye candy a time or two), but rather the nature of their emotional and mental maturity. A 13 year old that has worked a farm, helped raise siblings, possibly assisted with sibling or parent birthing as well as animal, etc. is a bit more mature than one that spends her time venturing the mall and facebook/twittering her friends all day long, or whatever it is teenage girls do these days.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Muad'Dib was 17 when he took Irulan as a wife.

He was 20 IIRC.

[Freakzilla]

Muad'Dib was 17 when he took Irulan as a wife.

He was 20 IIRC.

18

He was 15 when they moved to Arrakis and spent three years in the desert.

[Dune Nerd]

You guys do know that a 13 year old bride is well old enough when you consider that they usually die in their 30's, if not in child birth. That would make her middle age. Nowadays of course this is seen as sick and demented, not because a 13 year old is not physically mature enough (don't tell me you guys haven't found yourself staring at some 13 year old eye candy a time or two), but rather the nature of their emotional and mental maturity. A 13 year old that has worked a farm, helped raise siblings, possibly assisted with sibling or parent birthing as well as animal, etc. is a bit more mature than one that spends her time venturing the mall and facebook/twittering her friends all day long, or whatever it is teenage girls do these days.

Actually life expectancy was not 30, this is a common misconception. Average ages were in the 30s but that is due to really high infant mortality rates not lower lifespan. FWIW

[Freakzilla]

You guys do know that a 13 year old bride is well old enough when you consider that they usually die in their 30's, if not in child birth. That would make her middle age. Nowadays of course this is seen as sick and demented, not because a 13 year old is not physically mature enough (don't tell me you guys haven't found yourself staring at some 13 year old eye candy a time or two), but rather the nature of their emotional and mental maturity. A 13 year old that has worked a farm, helped raise siblings, possibly assisted with sibling or parent birthing as well as animal, etc. is a bit more mature than one that spends her time venturing the mall and facebook/twittering her friends all day long, or whatever it is teenage girls do these days.

Actually life expectancy was not 30, this is a common misconception. Average ages were in the 30s but that is due to really high infant mortality rates not lower lifespan. FWIW

The high infant mortality rates was probably due to 13-year-olds having babies.

[Dune Nerd]

You guys do know that a 13 year old bride is well old enough when you consider that they usually die in their 30's, if not in child birth. That would make her middle age. Nowadays of course this is seen as sick and demented, not because a 13 year old is not physically mature enough (don't tell me you guys haven't found yourself staring at some 13 year old eye candy a time or two), but rather the nature of their emotional and mental maturity. A 13 year old that has worked a farm, helped raise siblings, possibly assisted with sibling or parent birthing as well as animal, etc. is a bit more mature than one that spends her time venturing the mall and facebook/twittering her friends all day long, or whatever it is teenage girls do these days.

Actually life expectancy was not 30, this is a common misconception. Average ages were in the 30s but that is due to really high infant mortality rates not lower lifespan. FWIW

The high infant mortality rates was probably due to 13-year-olds having babies.

It all becomes clear now

[A Thing of Eternity]

Muad'Dib was 17 when he took Irulan as a wife.

He was 20 IIRC.

18

He was 15 when they moved to Arrakis and spent three years in the desert.

Was it? I knew he started at 15, but I thought it was 4 or 5 years. Damn my memory!

[Freakzilla]

Muad'Dib was 17 when he took Irulan as a wife.

He was 20 IIRC.

18

He was 15 when they moved to Arrakis and spent three years in the desert.

Was it? I knew he started at 15, but I thought it was 4 or 5 years. Damn my memory!

He is going to bring Gurney Halleck here, she thought. And she wondered at
the strange mingling of emotions that filled her. Gurney and his music had been
a part of so many pleasant times on Caladan before the move to Arrakis. She felt
that Caladan had happened to some other person. In the nearly three years since
then, she had become another person. Having to confront Gurney forced a
reassessment of the changes.
~Dune

[A Thing of Eternity]

Muad'Dib was 17 when he took Irulan as a wife.

He was 20 IIRC.

18

He was 15 when they moved to Arrakis and spent three years in the desert.

Was it? I knew he started at 15, but I thought it was 4 or 5 years. Damn my memory!

He is going to bring Gurney Halleck here, she thought. And she wondered at
the strange mingling of emotions that filled her. Gurney and his music had been
a part of so many pleasant times on Caladan before the move to Arrakis. She felt
that Caladan had happened to some other person. In the nearly three years since
then, she had become another person. Having to confront Gurney forced a
reassessment of the changes.
~Dune

I stand corrected. I had it my head that there was a year or two after that point before the end of the book.

[Freakzilla]

LETO ATREIDES (10,140-10,191)
VLADIMIR HARKONNEN (10,110-10,193)

[A Thing of Eternity]

Doubly corrected!