Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor


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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Another easy example of just how quickly religions change themselves to fit into their world is Mormonism and the LDS. Polygamy was a very important part of their religion, but as soon as outside pressures grew too great - bam, oops, we never really should have been poly, the LDS is the TRUE church, those polygamists are just extremists...

People talk about their faiths like it's solid truth, but change it at a whim.

Christianity says slavery is fine? - oops, Jesus didn't mean it.

Women should be subjects to their men - oops, let's just ignore all of the NT and Tanakh on that one.

The list goes on and on.
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Raveem
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by Raveem »

There are a few areas where discussion doesn't necessarily solve or change views of the participants, religion and politics being good examples. I'm sure a religion chat on a topic as bald as "Islamic sanction of paedophilia(!)" belongs in the ghafla, or even politics section; I thought we were discussing the God Emperor here, where "Similarities between Tleilaxu and Islamic veneration of past prophets" might serve better.

Far be it for me to restrict what posters wish to discuss however, I was just stating my own intention.

Raveem.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Raveem wrote:There are a few areas where discussion doesn't necessarily solve or change views of the participants, religion and politics being good examples. I'm sure a religion chat on a topic as bald as "Islamic sanction of paedophilia(!)" belongs in the ghafla, or even politics section; I thought we were discussing the God Emperor here, where "Similarities between Tleilaxu and Islamic veneration of past prophets" might serve better.

Far be it for me to restrict what posters wish to discuss however, I was just stating my own intention.

Raveem.
The difference is that we're not debating these issues, we're simply stating them as evidence of how easy it would have been for the tleilaxu to intergrate Leto II into their relgion.

If it wanders a little off topic into a bit of a debate about the veracity of those statements, then I wouldn't worry about it, conversations tend to do that!
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by loremaster »

Google Skeptics Annotated Bible. Alongside that you'll find an annotated Qu'ran and Book of Mormon.

It's great to be able to quote examples, to shout down misquotes and it's fantastic for highlighting just HOW FEW modern christians have bothered to read any of the bible. They take the lazy option of letting priests distort and emphasise certain parts of it for manipulation..

The MP had nothing on most organised religions in the "real world"
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Harq al Ada wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Nine-year-old wife, for starters?
that's a big one.
We should definitely hold up someone that lived over a thousand years ago to modern standards, shouldn't we? Calling out Muhammed for his child-bride is just hypocrisy since nearly everyone before and after that time married someone significantly younger, Christians included.

In any case, by all accounts the marriage was political in that it ensured both his position as well as his bride's. Muhammed waited until the girl was older before consummating the marriage. Not much, but still something he held off on until he was socially obligated to considering she was constantly receiving threats of being unfaithful despite her age.
Harq al Ada wrote:
"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..." QURAN - 33:50
Raping people and sanctioning rape is pretty immoral and sexually perverse also.
And other religions of the time, even Christianity didn't condone rape?

Like Eternity said, every religion has issues with their doctrine that aren't expressed in this day. It's unfair to target Islam when you'd be hard-pressed to find an example of someone else that perfectly fit our modern perception of a holy man.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by SandChigger »

Who's targeting Islam? THEY'RE ALL BULLSHIT. :)
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by Harq al Ada »

Redstar wrote:
Harq al Ada wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Nine-year-old wife, for starters?
that's a big one.
We should definitely hold up someone that lived over a thousand years ago to modern standards, shouldn't we? Calling out Muhammed for his child-bride is just hypocrisy since nearly everyone before and after that time married someone significantly younger, Christians included.

In any case, by all accounts the marriage was political in that it ensured both his position as well as his bride's. Muhammed waited until the girl was older before consummating the marriage. Not much, but still something he held off on until he was socially obligated to considering she was constantly receiving threats of being unfaithful despite her age.
Harq al Ada wrote:
"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..." QURAN - 33:50
Raping people and sanctioning rape is pretty immoral and sexually perverse also.
And other religions of the time, even Christianity didn't condone rape?

Like Eternity said, every religion has issues with their doctrine that aren't expressed in this day. It's unfair to target Islam when you'd be hard-pressed to find an example of someone else that perfectly fit our modern perception of a holy man.

you asked about my Muhammad statement so I gave an example and then you get upset and try to justify why he was a dirty old man? but yah throw all religions in there. I think religions are all rubbish. And yes, if someone is going to state that a character/s in a book/writings is a model of THE righteous way to live or a model of perfection (which some Xians describe Jesus as being) then you need to consider the entire history written about that character as a whole. If that character doesn't fit into the current morality then you need to qualify that statement. The characters Muhammad/Jesus/Moses/Odin/Horus were righteous in the time their myths were written.

Anywho, religions will change (fighting it tooth and nail) to fit the evolving morality of man or the religion will die.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Fuck religion.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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I was upset from the onset when you called Muhammed a "perv sex fiend", and became even more so due to your "explanation". It really wasn't relevant to the discussion, since this thread isn't about the hypocrisy of religious figures in their sexuality. You simply made an off-hand offensive comment and are justifying it as an attack on all religions, when it clearly wasn't.

And no, he was not a dirty old man. That child bride of his was his favorite and ended up wielding as much power as him, even after he died. If he was such a pedophile, I'd think she'd be discarded after her age was used up, or that he'd have a whole harm of kids. He just had her, and it was political.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by Raveem »

You see? It's become a discussion on religion in the real world rather than FH's interesting use of parallels. And no God Emperor in sight.

Raveem.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

That happens. If you get bent out of shape every time a thread goes off topic you'll have a stroke!

And if you look back, pretty much every second or third post does mention how the current rant related back to the GEoD.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by Harq al Ada »

Redstar wrote:I was upset from the onset when you called Muhammed a "perv sex fiend", and became even more so due to your "explanation". It really wasn't relevant to the discussion, since this thread isn't about the hypocrisy of religious figures in their sexuality. You simply made an off-hand offensive comment and are justifying it as an attack on all religions, when it clearly wasn't.

And no, he was not a dirty old man. That child bride of his was his favorite and ended up wielding as much power as him, even after he died. If he was such a pedophile, I'd think she'd be discarded after her age was used up, or that he'd have a whole harm of kids. He just had her, and it was political.
Not off-hand at all but I can see why an apologist might get offended. It was perfectly relevant to the topic. See below for a refresher. I stated that religions change and the morality that religions focus on from their books changes and I mentioned the RCC (they have an affinity for little boys; castrato anyone) and something about what I was able to gather from the few readings that I have on Muhammad's sexual preferences. And I bet she was his favorite; at that age he could mold her into just about anything he wanted to. But if it makes you feel any better the U.S. only increased the age of consent from 13y/o in the early 1900's.
Unfront wrote:I noticed that in Heretics of Dune, the Tleilaxu are worshipers of "The divided God". At what point did tleilaxians begin to accept the God Emperor as Gods messenger as a part of their religion? I thought the Tleilaxu and the Atreides mutually abhored each other.

You could drag humankind almost anywhere by manipulating the enormous energies of procreation. You could goad humans into actions they would never have believed possible. ...This energy must have an outlet. Bottle it up and it becomes monstrously dangerous. Redirect it and it will sweep over anything in its path. This is an ultimate secret of all religions. ~Miles Teg
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

To be fair, I'll make fun of Muhammed (pbuh) for sitting a cave so long that he started having hallucinations than I will for him taking a young bride.








Okay, now we're getting off the topic. :wink:
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Wild Turkey and Paulaner Hefe Weizen are clouding my memory with corn squeezin's and unfiltered hops, but to answer the question...

I believe the point the BT accepted Leto II as prophet was after capturing and interrogating a Fish Speaker. I don't have my books with me at the moment or I'd look it up for you.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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A Thing of Eternity wrote:To be fair, I'll make fun of Muhammed (pbuh) for sitting a cave so long that he started having hallucinations than I will for him taking a young bride.








Okay, now we're getting off the topic. :wink:
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Harq al Ada wrote:Not off-hand at all but I can see why an apologist might get offended. It was perfectly relevant to the topic. See below for a refresher. I stated that religions change and the morality that religions focus on from their books changes and I mentioned the RCC (they have an affinity for little boys; castrato anyone) and something about what I was able to gather from the few readings that I have on Muhammad's sexual preferences. And I bet she was his favorite; at that age he could mold her into just about anything he wanted to. But if it makes you feel any better the U.S. only increased the age of consent from 13y/o in the early 1900's.
What is the RCC so I can look into it? I've been watching the Youtube series you linked, but so far it's been rather neutral and at times supportive of Islam, so not sure what you're really getting at with it.

You act like Aisha was a child. Prior to the Industrial Revolution and the banning of child-labour, "childhood" was rarely practiced. Pre-adolescents were treated as nothing more than miniature adults, and so matured at a much earlier age. While child marriage and child sexuality would most likely still cause psychological harm, children were hardened and conditioned to survive life and this would transfer over to sexuality as well. It was merely a part of life that an adult would do, and children were considered adults at a much younger age than they are now.

In the same way, child marriage was/is common because it is a near guarantee of virginity. Virginity is important to many cultures. In fact, Muhammed's marriage to Aisha was (as earlier stated) political and religious. Her virginity was a divine position that he as a Prophet of Allah would consecrate his own position with. This was common. Many people engaged in such ceremonies, even young boys with older women (particularly nobility/royalty). It's hardly a case of sexuality, so we can't place our modern perceptions onto older practices and claim they were wrong when they were very much different circumstances.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed, huh?
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Personally, I don't think anyone should have sex until they're at least 16, but I won't assert anything on a people in a time other than mine.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Grass don't grow on playgrounds.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Redstar wrote: What is the RCC so I can look into it? I've been watching the Youtube series you linked, but so far it's been rather neutral and at times supportive of Islam, so not sure what you're really getting at with it.

You act like Aisha was a child. Prior to the Industrial Revolution and the banning of child-labour, "childhood" was rarely practiced. Pre-adolescents were treated as nothing more than miniature adults, and so matured at a much earlier age. While child marriage and child sexuality would most likely still cause psychological harm, children were hardened and conditioned to survive life and this would transfer over to sexuality as well. It was merely a part of life that an adult would do, and children were considered adults at a much younger age than they are now.

In the same way, child marriage was/is common because it is a near guarantee of virginity. Virginity is important to many cultures. In fact, Muhammed's marriage to Aisha was (as earlier stated) political and religious. Her virginity was a divine position that he as a Prophet of Allah would consecrate his own position with. This was common. Many people engaged in such ceremonies, even young boys with older women (particularly nobility/royalty). It's hardly a case of sexuality, so we can't place our modern perceptions onto older practices and claim they were wrong when they were very much different circumstances.
the link video was just interesting so I posted it. RCC = Roman Catholic Church.

The age of sexual maturity hasn't changed much if at all (about 10-12 in girls). Also a person at that age is not a little adult no matter how much you imagine that their life was hardened and conditioned by the time that they were raised in. The human brain doesn't finish being virtually mush until around 25y/o; they did not mature at an earlier age. I read an article on a study of baboons a few years or so ago that showed when baboons were fed junk food (don't remember what they fed them exactly) that they were actually reaching puberty sooner.

Dude, trying to justify it by throwing around that your imaginary friend sanctioned it is friggin' creepy. (With god/s anything is permitted). And how is it not a case of sexuality? A person is sexually attracted to a much younger person and they have sex. You can still be monogamous and a perv. And the way that religions deal with virginity was and still is obscene.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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The entire Roman Catholic Church has a thing for "little boys"? Yet more idiotic generalizing. That shit wasn't so widespread, and only appears to be because of exaggeration, lawsuit-mongers, and it happened over many years. Sexual abuse occurs all over and religion rarely has anything to do with it.

I didn't say they were little adults, I said they were treated as such.

What imaginary friend? I don't have one. :?

Pedophilia is sexual attraction to a prepubescent. Aisha wasn't prepubescent, so it was ephebophilia. My whole point is that it was a political and religious relationship so you can't call Muhammed a pervert when it was custom the world over and not based on a sexual attraction to a child. Watch the videos you linked. It actually brings the whole thing up and covers exactly what I've said, and treated it exactly as I have.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Harq al Ada wrote:You can still be monogamous and a perv.
Like me, for example.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Freakzilla wrote:
Harq al Ada wrote:You can still be monogamous and a perv.
Like me, for example.
I don't even know what monogamy has to do with it.
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Re: Tlilaxian adoration of the God Emperor

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Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Harq al Ada wrote:You can still be monogamous and a perv.
Like me, for example.
I don't even know what monogamy has to do with it.
I keep telling my wife that...
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