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    A BG Scytale Ghola?

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      Master Geneticists and Sufi-Zensunnis

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    Postby orald » 03 Apr 2008 10:28

    Shouldn't it be Moneo or one of the newer Atreides who'd "roger" her?
    After all, if Moneo can beat the crap out of Duncan, imagine how much better he is in other areas! :D
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 03 Apr 2008 15:01

    orald wrote:Shouldn't it be Moneo or one of the newer Atreides who'd "roger" her?
    After all, if Moneo can beat the crap out of Duncan, imagine how much better he is in other areas! :D


    Don't be ridiculous, we Tleilaxu made sure Duncan was the best of the best when comes to that. :wink:
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    Postby Tleszer » 03 Apr 2008 15:12

    Tleilax Master B wrote:
    orald wrote:Shouldn't it be Moneo or one of the newer Atreides who'd "roger" her?
    After all, if Moneo can beat the crap out of Duncan, imagine how much better he is in other areas! :D


    Don't be ridiculous, we Tleilaxu made sure Duncan was the best of the best when comes to that. :wink:


    How? Made sure that Duncan was tested with the tanks?
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 03 Apr 2008 15:28

    Tleszer wrote:
    Tleilax Master B wrote:
    orald wrote:Shouldn't it be Moneo or one of the newer Atreides who'd "roger" her?
    After all, if Moneo can beat the crap out of Duncan, imagine how much better he is in other areas! :D


    Don't be ridiculous, we Tleilaxu made sure Duncan was the best of the best when comes to that. :wink:


    How? Made sure that Duncan was tested with the tanks?


    By using the knowledge we gained from our meetings with our Malik brothers; the Lost Tleilaxu.
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    Postby orald » 03 Apr 2008 17:03

    Tleszer has a point there- you need to test, but there're no women other than in Tank form. The only option would be a FD disguised as one.
    That or some Master lovin'. :?

    By using the knowledge we gained from our meetings with our Malik brothers; the Lost Tleilaxu.

    And their knowledge would be derived from...uh, jeezing into Tanks? No thanks, dude. :roll:
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 03 Apr 2008 17:08

    orald wrote:Tleszer has a point there- you need to test, but there're no women other than in Tank form. The only option would be a FD disguised as one.
    That or some Master lovin'. :?

    By using the knowledge we gained from our meetings with our Malik brothers; the Lost Tleilaxu.

    And their knowledge would be derived from...uh, jeezing into Tanks? No thanks, dude. :roll:


    I'm not sure I understand a single thing you posted above. :roll:

    The explanation I provided was the actual explanation. The Tleilaxu from the Scattering brought the original Tleilaxu the knowledge of the Honored Matres sexual enslaving and they incorporated this into Duncan to be a counter weapon (or to be used on the BG, I'm not sure that is ever entirely clear).
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    Postby orald » 03 Apr 2008 17:13

    I know that, I was joking. I was refering to their lack of personal experience in such matters. :)

    And Duncan was supposed to be used to enslave BG like the HM did to their slaves, a fact the BG recognized and later trained just such males(if you remember, in ChD, Odrade sees one of them in Sheena's desert complex, taking a sun bath).
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    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Apr 2008 17:17

    Duncan was programmed to use his hidden sexual skills on a Bene Gesserit Imprinter. That they worked on a Honored Matre, I think, was a bonus.
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 03 Apr 2008 17:19

    Freakzilla wrote:Duncan was programmed to use his hidden sexual skills on a Bene Gesserit Imprinter. That they worked on a Honored Matre, I think, was a bonus.


    That's right. I need to read Heretics and Chapterhouse again, its been awhile and I'm getting rusty :wink:
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    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Apr 2008 17:24

    Tleilax Master B wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Duncan was programmed to use his hidden sexual skills on a Bene Gesserit Imprinter. That they worked on a Honored Matre, I think, was a bonus.


    That's right. I need to read Heretics and Chapterhouse again, its been awhile and I'm getting rusty :wink:


    I don't think the BT had "absorbed" a HM at the time they created the last Duncan, at least not that we're told about. But I'm sure they were already in the Old Empire and they could have easily assumed that if it would work on an imprinter it would work on an HM.
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    Postby orald » 03 Apr 2008 18:41

    It's clear they didn't- Waff learned new, useful and quite surprising things from his capture of that HM in the Ixian ship. And that's 16 years after they delievered their latest Duncan ghola to the BG.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby Rakis » 03 Apr 2008 22:26

    I don't think the BT had "absorbed" a HM at the time they created the last Duncan, at least not that we're told about. But I'm sure they were already in the Old Empire and they could have easily assumed that if it would work on an imprinter it would work on an HM.


    Yeah, and i think the Lost Tlelaxu didn't told everything to their brothers about the cells they brought...
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    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Apr 2008 23:40

    Rakis wrote:
    I don't think the BT had "absorbed" a HM at the time they created the last Duncan, at least not that we're told about. But I'm sure they were already in the Old Empire and they could have easily assumed that if it would work on an imprinter it would work on an HM.


    Yeah, and i think the Lost Tlelaxu didn't told everything to their brothers about the cells they brought...


    I think those are how Duncan connects to The Net, like an organic, genetic, wireless interface to a interstellar network.
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    Postby Rakis » 03 Apr 2008 23:46

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Rakis wrote:
    I don't think the BT had "absorbed" a HM at the time they created the last Duncan, at least not that we're told about. But I'm sure they were already in the Old Empire and they could have easily assumed that if it would work on an imprinter it would work on an HM.


    Yeah, and i think the Lost Tlelaxu didn't told everything to their brothers about the cells they brought...


    I think those are how Duncan connects to The Net, like an organic, genetic, wireless interface to a interstellar network.


    SFD cells? I think FH would have given more info about that in Dune 7, in particular, how the Lost Ones acquired the cells or was that a set up from the SFD from the beginning...
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    Postby SandChigger » 04 Apr 2008 01:00

    INTERSTELLAR WIRELESS?! :shock:

    FACE-PALM!!! :D

    (sigh)

    I just hope to Dur that FH wasn't thinking of a tachyon net. I'd go for The Void That Binds before that. :mrgreen:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby orald » 04 Apr 2008 05:55

    SandChigger wrote:INTERSTELLAR WIRELESS?! :shock:

    FACE-PALM!!! :D

    (sigh)

    I just hope to Dur that FH wasn't thinking of a tachyon net. I'd go for The Void That Binds before that. :mrgreen:

    I knew I read about tachyons somewhere in Ch: D:
    Ch: D wrote:When he was finished, he asked himself once more about the visions. Influencing my dreams? What have I tapped? In every spare minute since becoming Teg's Weapons Master, he had been calling up Archival records. There had to be some clue in all of that massive accumulation!
    Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had called his energy source. A wave system that ignored light speed's limits. Light speed obviously did not limit foldspace ships. Techys?
    "It works because it works," Idaho muttered. "Faith. Like any other religion."
    Mentats squirreled away much seemingly inconsequential data. He had a
    storehouse marked "Techys" and proceeded to go through it without satisfaction.
    Not even Guild Navigators professed knowledge of how they guided foldspace ships. Ixian scientists made machines to duplicate Navigator abilities but still could not define what they did.
    "Holzmann's formulae can be trusted."
    No one claimed to understand Holzmann. They merely used his formulae because they worked. It was the "ether" of space travel. You folded space. One instant you were here and the next instant you were countless parsecs distant.
    Someone "out there" has found another way to use Holzmann's theories! It was a full Mentat Projection. He knew its accuracy from the new questions it produced.

    ...

    Who were those people he saw? Strong enough to drive out Honored Matres. He knew it for a Projection datum.
    Last edited by orald on 04 Apr 2008 06:00, edited 1 time in total.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Apr 2008 05:58

    SandChigger wrote:INTERSTELLAR WIRELESS?! :shock:

    FACE-PALM!!! :D

    (sigh)

    I just hope to Dur that FH wasn't thinking of a tachyon net. I'd go for The Void That Binds before that. :mrgreen:


    So, what's your theory on The Net?
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    Postby SandChigger » 04 Apr 2008 20:17

    Freakzilla wrote:So, what's your theory on The Net?

    Haven't really worked one out yet, but I see no reason to assume that the "shimmering net" was composed of tachyons.

    Yes, "tachyon theory" is mentioned in connection with Holtzmann's "original design". (But note that he calls his power source techys, not tachyons. Why create a special new term if the techys are just tachyons?) Yes, the text Duncan concludes that "someone 'out there'" (= the old couple?) has discovered a new application for Holtzmann's theories (= the Net?). But I'm not convinced this means the net is composed of tachyons.

    If that was indeed where FH was headed, how unfortunate that he would tie something so successful (Holtzmann engines, as a literary device) to an unproven theory, about objects that may not in fact exist. It would have been a bigger mistake than all the genetic Other Memory stuff.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby orald » 04 Apr 2008 20:38

    And what mistake was that? You could say that in the Duniverse they found all this stuff, as we are still(as I understand from your words) unsure of where things stand.

    Do you really think less of Dune because there's all this stupid genetic memory talk there? :?

    Next you'll say you don't believe in God Leto's true divinity! :shock:
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby SandChigger » 04 Apr 2008 23:10

    orald wrote:And what mistake was that? You could say that in the Duniverse they found all this stuff, as we are still(as I understand from your words) unsure of where things stand.

    That's always one way of looking at it, of course. But I see little difference between a "net" made of tachyons and one woven of the gossamer pubic hairs of wee pink and green space fairies.

    All I'm saying is Herbert's space-folding Holtzmann engines work better as a story element than his genetic Other Memory because he left the details vague and therefore ran no risk of those details being overturned by later developments in the real world.

    Do you really think less of Dune because there's all this stupid genetic memory talk there? :?

    No, of course not. But as something which is as close to impossible as you can get, for a reader that paid any attention at all in biology classes, genetic memory requires a bit more effort to keep the old disbelief happily floating about the room while reading.

    At the time Herbert began Dune, DNA was still a fairly recent discovery, so I don't really fault him on where he went with it. For me it's a wee wrinkle that I obviously am able to live with. Because the rest of the story is just that damned good. ;)

    The passage you quoted may be the only one that makes a tenuous connection between the Net and tachyons. (Can anyone think of another?) Because Herbert Minor and The Hiking Hack are far inferior writers, they go ahead and ram that connection down our throats almost every time they mention the Net, strongly linking the element with what may turn out to be small and flittery and pink and green. Just one more reason, in other words, for people in the future to laugh at their work. :D

    Next you'll say you don't believe in God Leto's true divinity! :shock:

    Sorry.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Rakis » 04 Apr 2008 23:26

    I think maybe in a way the Net is something that has to do with genetics. If Duncan was able to access it somehow, he didn't have any techno means to do it, maybe the genes in him...And those genes are part of the other way to use Holzmann's theories, but how... :?:
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    Postby SandChigger » 04 Apr 2008 23:48

    That would be in line with BT methods, of course. And the BG would have found any techno-implants, no?

    The old couple are SFDs from the Scattering; the Old Empire BT apparently incorporated Scattering gene-tech in the ghola, so....

    Yeah, how is the problem. ;)

    I look at a prescient (in one way) as someone whose brain structure allows them to sense the flux of possible futures, so I wouldn't be adverse to the Duncan ghola as someone whose brain interfaces with some sort of network...although that "out of time" aspect of the network does bother me.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Apr 2008 06:45

    It obviously has somethign to do with computers too, since when he erases the no-ship's computer memory it dissappears.
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    Postby orald » 05 Apr 2008 15:07

    I know the genetic memory stuff is ludicrous, I've known it for years, but I just ignore the Voice etc.

    SandChigger wrote:Sorry.

    You shall burn then! :evil:
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    Postby Mandy » 05 Apr 2008 17:30

    You ignore the Voice in your head, or the BG Voice? :P I look at the BG's use of Voice as a type of hypnosis so it's not an unbelievable element in the books, like OM is.
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