And here are the bits relevant to M&D:
Frank Herbert, in Chapterhouse: Dune, wrote:He fell asleep to dream he was in the ship's armory. It was a dream touched by realities. The ship remained a weapons factory as it actually had become. Odrade was talking to him in the dream armory. "I make decisions of necessity, Duncan. Little likelihood you'll break out and run amok."
"I am too much the Mentat for that!" How self-important his dream voice! I'm dreaming and I know I dream. Why am I in the armory with Odrade?
A list of weapons scrolled before his eyes. Atomics. (He saw big blasters and deadly dusts.) Lasguns. (No counting the various models.) Bacteriologicals.
The scroll was interrupted by Odrade's voice. "We can assume smugglers concentrate as usual on small things that bring a big price. "
"Soostones, of course." Still self-important. I'm not that way! "Assassination weapons," she said. "Plans and specifications for new devices." "Theft of trade secrets is a big item with smugglers." I'm insufferable!
"There are always medicines and the diseases that require them," she said.
Where is she? I can hear her but I can't see her. "Do Honored Matres know our universe harbors blackguards not above sowing the problem before providing the solution?" Blackguards? I never use that word.
"All things relative, Duncan. They burned Lampadas and butchered four million of our finest."
He awoke and sat upright. Specifications for new devices! There it was in delicate detail, a way to miniaturize Holzmann generators. Two centimeters, no more. And much cheaper! How was that smuggled into my mind?
Frank Herbert, in Chapterhouse: Dune, wrote:Energizers appeared next. He had a private arsenal of those: ways of increasing capacities of your troops.
Abruptly, the shimmering net from his vision replaced scrolling weapons and he
saw the elderly couple in their garden. They glared at him. The man's voice became audible. "Stop spying on us!"
Idaho gripped the arms of his chair and jerked himself forward but the vision disappeared before he could study details.
He sensed a residue of the scroll in his mind, no longer visible but a musing voice . . . masculine.
"Defenses often must take on characteristics of the attack weapons. Sometimes, however, simple systems can divert the most devastating weapons."
Simple systems! He laughed aloud. "Miles! Where the hell are you, Teg? I have your disguised attack vessels! Inflated decoys! Empty except for a miniature Holzmann generator and lasgun." He added this to his Archives transmissions.
When he was finished, he asked himself once more about the visions. Influencing my dreams? What have I tapped?
In every spare minute since becoming Teg's Weapons Master, he had been calling up Archival records. There had to be some clue in all of that massive accumulation!
Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had called his energy source.
A wave system that ignored light speed's limits. Light speed obviously did not limit foldspace ships. Techys?
"It works because it works," Idaho muttered. "Faith. Like any other religion."
Mentats squirreled away much seemingly inconsequential data. He had a storehouse marked "Techys" and proceeded to go through it without satisfaction.
Not even Guild Navigators professed knowledge of how they guided foldspace ships. Ixian scientists made machines to duplicate Navigator abilities but still could not define what they did.
"Holzmann's formulae can be trusted."
No one claimed to understand Holzmann. They merely used his formulae because they worked. It was the "ether" of space travel. You folded space. One instant you were here and the next instant you were countless parsecs distant.
Someone "out there" has found another way to use Holzmann's theories! It was a full Mentat Projection. He knew its accuracy from the new questions it produced.
Murbella's Other Memory ramblings haunted him now even though he recognized basic Bene Gesserit teachings in them.
Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. This is the danger of entrenched bureaucracy to its subject population. Even spoils systems are preferable because levels of tolerance are lower and the corrupt can be thrown out periodically. Entrenched bureaucracy seldom can be touched short of violence. Beware when Civil Service and Military join hands!
The Honored Matre achievement. Power for the sake of power . . . an aristocracy bred from unbalanced stock.
Who were those people he saw? Strong enough to drive out Honored Matres. He knew it for a Projection datum.
Idaho found this realization profoundly dislocating. Honored Matres fugitives! Barbaric but ignorant in the way of all such raiders even from before the Vandals. Moved by impulsive greed as much as by any other force. "Take Roman gold!" They filtered all distractions out of awareness. It was a stupefying ignorance that faltered only when the more sophisticated culture insinuated itself into the . . .
Abruptly, he saw what Odrade was doing.
Gods below! What a fragile plan!
He pressed his palms against his eyes and forced himself not to cry out in anguish. Let them think I'm tired. But seeing Odrade's plan told him also he would lose Murbella . . . one way or another.
So here's what I gather from this, in point form because it's fracking late...
- "Stop spying on us!" is Daniel acting cheeky.
- Marty and Daniel are using Holzmann tech in a unique way (something to do with tachyon) to spy on Duncan, manipulate his dreams, deploy their net, and smuggle tech ideas into his mind. This means that the whole Net thing is a lot more rooted in conventional Dune physics than I had suspected this afternoon.
- The ability to manipulate dreams really lends itself to why M&D might compare themselves to God in the final chapter.
- Notice the recurring theme of smuggling. Bravo Mr. Herbert.
- Marty & Daniel are projecting a fake version of Duncan into his dream, solely for the purpose of coming to the conclusions about tech to use against the HM. Marty & Daniel are helping them win. Why? Because they are on the same side as Duncan and the BG in wanting to extinguish the less "sophisticated culture."
- And if Marty & Daniel are of such sophistication, this suggests to me that they may not end up being the bad guys by the time all this is over.
- This also demonstrates why M&D might consider Duncan to be such a "big Mentat." They knew he was capable of computing ingenious weapons systems with the subtlest of hints.
- I have to ask: Did M&D intend for Duncan to find the whole dream and revelation to be suspicious, or were they being sloppy in not anticipating that the same way they did not anticipate Duncan being able to see the Net?
- Also consider this. Both M&D and the Tleilaxu influenced Duncan in one way or another for the sole purpose of bringing down the Honored Matres. Interesting that the BT Masters and these all-powerful facedancers share a common cause. This should be considered when it comes to figuring out what becomes of Scytale.
So, above we have possible answers regarding M&D's motivations, technology, capabilities, goals, and personalities. I'm sure there's more to be discussed here, so lets see if we can debate these points or flesh them out. Plus there's still a whole other M&D scene if someone wants to post that. I'd do it if I didn't have to wake up in 4.5 hours.