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Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 12:29
by SandRider
HB Jack, in the Chapterhouse ending thread, wrote: (There's the whole other question of whether this chapter is Frank's way of saying goodbye to Dune; that Daniel and Marty represent Frank and Beverly, and the no-ship's escape from D & M represents the release of the Dune creators' hold on their creation. As interesting - and, in a way, desirable - that idea is, it runs counter to the intention of this thread, I expect. So I'll say no more about it).
and we'll say more about that here ...

this issue needs to hashed thru, too; I've been one of those that've held to that line - Chapterhouse did not have a "cliff-hanger" ending
as much as an "open ending" - cf Frank's recorded talk with McNelly about "leaving things for the reader", the epilogue dedication to Beverly
that immediately follows the last chapter; the last line - "Gholas. He's welcome to them." - a disinterest in raising the dead ?

I think that Frank probably thought about another Dune book, may have even mentioned it to Brian, or someone else who might've
mentioned it to Brian ... he may or may not have begun the process of building notes ... certainly his publishers had broached the
subject, and it may have been something he was considering and would have done, had his health not failed .... he may also have
had every intention in the world of ending the series right there ... as he could have ended it at Children of Dune or God-emperor ...
obviously, Heretics & Chapterhouse were conceived as one "story" ...

if we are intending to come to some conclusions about what Frank Herbert intended for "Dune 7",
we must consider the possibility that he had no intentions at all ....

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 13:31
by Ampoliros
certainly possible. I've considered wither the dune 7 book would be placed even further in the future and not be centered around the no-ship but rather a universe with them removed.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 14:32
by A Thing of Eternity
When I finished Chapterhouse I was unaware that there was supposed to be more. It didn't seem like a normal ending by any means, but didn't really beg to be continued per say.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 15:54
by Omphalos
Don't we have it from a source other than Spanks and Bobo or any of the HLP liars that FH actually did start some work on Dune 7?

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 17:42
by DuneFishUK
Could he have changed his mind?

IMHO there is an obvious gap for a seventh book... but real life events and particularity losing Bev (who iirc was involved in the Dune writing process) might have made him see things differently - thus the D&M scene.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 18:34
by Hunchback Jack
That was my thought as well - that he may have had plans to do a 7th book, but with the death of Bev, and perhaps news of his own cancer diagnosis, he turned the last chapter into part homage, part farewell.

The only problem with this idea, I think, is that the last chapter gives a lot of in-story information about Daniel and Marty that serves better as preparation for a following book than it does as a conclusion. IMHO, anyway.

It would be interesting to get hold of the article mentioned here:

$2 million+ for Frank Herbert in three book deal
No author listed
Science Fiction Chronicle 3(8):1,4. May 1982.

... to see if confirms that Dune 7 was contracted.

HBJ

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 23 Oct 2010 21:21
by D Pope
I looked everywhere I could think of at copyright.gov hoping for a longshot chance there'd be something... got nothing, I guess you can't -or he didn't- copyright a book till it's written.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 17:14
by Unfront
I never felt that Chapterhouse ended in a cliff hanger. I never gave it much thought until I read that the much vaunted "Dune 7" notes would yeald a story that would provide closure to the "cliff hanger."

Instead of a Dune 7, we got a Dune 7 AND 8, complete with another useless book, Road to Dune. Sure, the dealted scenes and corerspondence were nice to read, but all of that information could have been posted on the website. Road to Dune was a real milker when it came to the cash grab. Obviously, there was not enough material so the publishers told Brian and Keith to re-write Dune as if it were their own - to wit we received "Spiceworld".

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 22:51
by SandChigger
What was the percentage of their shit ("Spice World" & the four short stories) compared to the deleted chapters & letters, etc. (=FH stuff) again... about 50%? :roll:

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 23:28
by Hunchback Jack
More than 2/3rds. In my UK PB, the missing chapters and letters were 120 pages out of 380.

HBJ

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 27 Oct 2010 00:24
by merkin muffley
"Open ending" seems like a more accurate description of the ending than "cliff-hanger" to me. The Marty and Daniel dialogue does express a certain amount of weariness with the Dune universe and a detachment from it.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 27 Oct 2010 13:54
by Shaitan
merkin muffley wrote:"Open ending" seems like a more accurate description of the ending than "cliff-hanger" to me. The Marty and Daniel dialogue does express a certain amount of weariness with the Dune universe and a detachment from it.
It's all too easy to get burned out on one's own creative vision -- particularly when it's a highly commercially viable property that you have "non-passion" motivations for continuing past its, shall we say, 'natural' lifespan. Plus, FH was already sick by that time as I understand it, and I also know all too well what it's like to have such distractions in one's life.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 01 Nov 2010 10:08
by Drunken Idaho
I can't remember where I read it (McNelly or Spinrad interview?), but I seem to recall Frank describing how he had wanted Dune to be over several times throughout writing the six books, but always had his arm twisted by publishers to keep writing them. I think Children of Dune was one such "conclusion," as well as God Emperor. It seems Frank was always ready to jump back into the series if he needed to. Considering that both Heretics and Chapterhouse definitely seemed to be leading up to something big, I think it's fair to assume that Frank probably would have gotten around to writing more Dune.

I think the real question is "Would Dune 7 have been the conclusion at all?" It could have been Dune 8 or 9, for all we know. I'm not suggesting that we work towards writing more than one book, however I think this point should be considered. I know that in the past we've discussed the esthetically-pleasing idea of two trilogies with God Emperor sandwiched in between as the glittering centerpiece. I still think that would be ideal.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 01:48
by dogbone
Personally, i think FH clearly intended to write more, whether that changed do to his illness or Bevs death, the original intent was to write more. I see FH as one of those writers who did the hard work, who developed character arcs that stayed true to form, carefully crafted plots hidden in plain sight and relishing the challenge of surprising even the most jaded reader. Ending it here feels like taking the easy way out ("what's in the briefcase," "what ever you want it to be!"), which doesn't strike me as something Herbert would have done. Just as he did with his other books, he was setting up the pins to get ready to knock them down. He'd primed Sheeana to do something for 2 books and she was finally getting ready to unveil her art (CD 404), Duncan's still trying to figure out what the Tleilaxu did to him and the Honored Matres are running from something. Herbert easily could have concluded the series to a satisfying end without adding these elements but chose to do the painstaking work of building the plot lines

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 09:21
by Freakzilla
Sure he planned to write more, but I still don't see the ending of CH:D as a cliffhanger.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 10:11
by trang
I just went with the masses on using the term Cliffhanger. It was just the end of the book and I saw more ahead, and desperately wanted more ahead, believed 100 percent he planned for more, but sadly that didn't happen, by Franks hand.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 10:22
by lotek
And thus, nothing happened, it was all just a dream fart.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 21:41
by JustSomeGuy
Would "Dune 7" have been the last book?

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 14 Dec 2011 21:51
by Freakzilla
Not if people kept buying them.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 15 Dec 2011 01:58
by A Thing of Eternity
Freakzilla wrote:Not if people kept buying them.
:lol: Quoted for truth. Or, if FH died after writing it, then yes it would have been the last book.

Children of Dune was supposed to be the last one remember.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 15 Dec 2011 20:35
by JustSomeGuy
I like the sound of "Dune 7," and I think it would have been a good place to stop. Seven, the number of completion. Well, that's just my superstitious mind.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 15 Dec 2011 22:57
by A Thing of Eternity
I think if FH had kept writing past the end of the story arc started in Heretics it probably would have run the risk of getting pretty bad.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 08 Jan 2012 01:07
by pardot
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: 'Now, it's complete because it's ended here'
-from 'Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib' by the Princess Irulan


I never saw the end of 'Chapterhouse' as a cliffhanger. Rather it seemed like an explosion of possibilities - had Herbert lived longer and wrote more, he could have taken the story anywhere. Except 'Terminator' ripoffs :)

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 21 Apr 2012 21:08
by gurensan
Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.

Seemed pretty clear to me he'd had more to do, but was just getting tired.

Re: Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

Posted: 28 Aug 2012 21:29
by tenfingersofdoom
SandChigger wrote:What was the percentage of their shit ("Spice World" & the four short stories) compared to the deleted chapters & letters, etc. (=FH stuff) again... about 50%? :roll:
"spice world" was too childish to be frank's work, HOWEVER since it was named "spice world" we immediately need ginger spice and scary spice to play duncan and murbella in any future adaptations or sequels.

If you wanna be my ghola,
you gotta get with my friends,
cloning Duncans forever,
fealty never ends!

I am so bored.