Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48
Posted: 09 May 2013 13:34
Beowulf? I read a few of those shitty H&A books, but I do not remember a Beowulf character. I guess the purge has started taking hold!
DUNE DISCUSSION FORUM FOR ORTHODOX HERBERTARIANS
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What kind of arguments do the Preek fans have in regards to Marty and Daniel's Tleilaxu Masters?Omphalos wrote:Beowulf? I read a few of those shitty H&A books, but I do not remember a Beowulf character. I guess the purge has started taking hold!
Daniel is a entity that appears in Duncan Idaho's visions, when the no-ship, the Ithaca, was being chased and trying to be encaptured by Daniel and Marty. Daniel appears as a homely, elderly man alongside his long-time female companion, Marty.
Omnius
Daniel was a human guise worn by the re-born Thinking Machine ruler, Omnius. Throughout the centuries, Omnius, and his companion, the re-born Erasmus, had been absorbing personalities they have acquired from Enhanced Face Dancers.
this suggests that while prescience is experienced in a mystic way, there is a scientific explanation behind it.We are not looking at a new state of matter but at a newly recognized relationship between consciousness and matter, which provides a more penetrating insight into the workings of prescience. The oracle shapes a projected inner universe to produce new external probabilities out of forces that are not understood. There is no need to understand these forces before using them to shape the physical universe. Ancient metal workers had no need to understand the molecular and submolecular complexities of their steel, bronze, copper, gold, and tin. They invented mystical powers to describe the unknown while they continued to operate their forges and wield their hammers.
-Mother Superior Taraza, Argument in Council
The working theory I'm working under right now as I begin CH:D again is close to this, which is that consciousness is already entwines with tachyons, and that the power of prescience (for for Navigators and the KH) employs these to obtain remote information. This assumption would also corroborate a theory Freak posited a while back, which is that prescience gives vision of both the future and the past, which tachyons would do since you could use FTL observation to check remote locations in space containing data from past events. The ability to look into the past might be limited, mind you, to a scale such as thousands of years, depending on whether FH had in his mind that tachyons are FTL but in a limited capacity. Data from millions of years ago might be 'too far' away to detect, whereas for the BG they obviously have detailed information going back hundreds of thousands of years or maybe more (memories of being chimpanzees?).xcalibur wrote:(I'm not sure where to post this so I'll post here)
I'm not a mentat, but here's my projection: prescience and other memory work by connecting the mind to tachyon waves. by ignoring relativity, it would connect the prescient to innumerable times and places, with the individual's genetic makeup/training/intention tending to limit and/or direct their observations of the universe and the minds of others. that's how the kwisatz haderach was many places at once. Marty & Daniel's gathering of numerous personas and knowledge, combined with new Holzmann experiments, allowed them to rise to the level of Kwisatz Haderach.
It's not really a theory if it's in the textgeorgiedenbro wrote:This assumption would also corroborate a theory Freak posited a while back, which is that prescience gives vision of both the future and the past, which tachyons would do since you could use FTL observation to check remote locations in space containing data from past events. The ability to look into the past might be limited, mind you, to a scale such as thousands of years, depending on whether FH had in his mind that tachyons are FTL but in a limited capacity. Data from millions of years ago might be 'too far' away to detect, whereas for the BG they obviously have detailed information going back hundreds of thousands of years or maybe more (memories of being chimpanzees?).
we're on the same page, then.georgiedenbro wrote:The working theory I'm working under right now as I begin CH:D again is close to this, which is that consciousness is already entwines with tachyons, and that the power of prescience (for for Navigators and the KH) employs these to obtain remote information. This assumption would also corroborate a theory Freak posited a while back, which is that prescience gives vision of both the future and the past, which tachyons would do since you could use FTL observation to check remote locations in space containing data from past events. The ability to look into the past might be limited, mind you, to a scale such as thousands of years, depending on whether FH had in his mind that tachyons are FTL but in a limited capacity. Data from millions of years ago might be 'too far' away to detect, whereas for the BG they obviously have detailed information going back hundreds of thousands of years or maybe more (memories of being chimpanzees?).xcalibur wrote:(I'm not sure where to post this so I'll post here)
I'm not a mentat, but here's my projection: prescience and other memory work by connecting the mind to tachyon waves. by ignoring relativity, it would connect the prescient to innumerable times and places, with the individual's genetic makeup/training/intention tending to limit and/or direct their observations of the universe and the minds of others. that's how the kwisatz haderach was many places at once. Marty & Daniel's gathering of numerous personas and knowledge, combined with new Holzmann experiments, allowed them to rise to the level of Kwisatz Haderach.
We might even go further than this and suggest that a corollary might be that a person's consciousness is non-linear and non-local and that it somehow retroactively exists in previous lives. This could be true of serial gholas as well as other memory, and would explain why someone with memory of previous lives would be more easily detected and likewise have an easier time detecting M&D. It would also help explain the extraordinarily strange presence of Alia in Mohiam's other memory in Dune, which at the time seemed like sorcery or something. I'm not sure whether Frank really thought that far ahead or had a concrete explanation behind what Alia did at that time, but it could fit.
SandRider wrote:in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
-The Zensunni Whip
"You deliberately let them get away, Daniel!"
The old woman rubbed her hands down the stained front of her garden apron. It was a summer morning around her, flowers blooming,
birds calling from nearby trees. There was a misty look to the sky, a yellow radiance near the horizon.
"Now, Marty, it was not deliberate," Daniel said. He took off his porkpie hat and rubbed the bushy stubble of gray hair before replacing the hat.
"He surprised me. I knew he saw us but I didn't suspect he saw the net."
"And I had such a nice planet picked out for them," Marty said. "One of the best. A real test of their abilities."
"No use moaning about it," Daniel said. "They're where we can't touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy."
"They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."
"Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way and you know it!
If it weren't for them . . ."
"They're not gods, Daniel."
"Neither are we."
"I still think you let them escape. You're so anxious to prune your roses!"
"What would you have said to the Master, anyway?" Daniel asked.
"I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: 'What did you expect,
God Himself with a flowing beard?' "
Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."
"I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.
Gather enough of those and . . ."
"It's personas we take, Marty."
"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."
"And theirs?"
"Oh, I'd have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn't that right, Daniel?"
"When you get that look on your face, Marty, I go prune my roses." He went back to a line of bushes with verdant leaves
and black blooms as large as his head.
Marty called after him: "Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That's what I'd have told him.
And those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?"
Daniel bent to his black roses.
She stared after him, hands on her hips.
"Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"
"The Masters always try to control them, too," she said.
"That Master is going to have trouble if he tries to mess with that big one," Daniel said, snipping off a ground shoot
from the root stock of his roses. "My, this is a pretty one."
"Mentats, too!" Marty called. "I'd have told them. Dime a dozen, they are."
"Dimes? I don't think they'd have understood that, Marty. The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back."
"You know what you let get away, Daniel?" she demanded, coming up beside him. "That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest.
Full of ghola cells, too!"
"I saw it."
"That's why you let them get away!"
"Didn't let them." His pruning shears went snick-snick. "Gholas. He's welcome to them."
SandRider wrote:I am the WaterMaster of this Tribe.
I come claiming water-rings.