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    Chapterhouse:Dune_48

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    Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandRider » 21 Oct 2010 10:51

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
    -The Zensunni Whip



    "You deliberately let them get away, Daniel!"

    The old woman rubbed her hands down the stained front of her garden apron. It was a summer morning around her, flowers blooming,
    birds calling from nearby trees. There was a misty look to the sky, a yellow radiance near the horizon.

    "Now, Marty, it was not deliberate," Daniel said. He took off his porkpie hat and rubbed the bushy stubble of gray hair before replacing the hat.
    "He surprised me. I knew he saw us but I didn't suspect he saw the net."

    "And I had such a nice planet picked out for them," Marty said. "One of the best. A real test of their abilities."

    "No use moaning about it," Daniel said. "They're where we can't touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy."

    "They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."

    "Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way and you know it!
    If it weren't for them . . ."

    "They're not gods, Daniel."

    "Neither are we."

    "I still think you let them escape. You're so anxious to prune your roses!"

    "What would you have said to the Master, anyway?" Daniel asked.

    "I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: 'What did you expect,
    God Himself with a flowing beard?' "

    Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

    "I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.
    Gather enough of those and . . ."

    "It's personas we take, Marty."

    "Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

    "And theirs?"

    "Oh, I'd have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn't that right, Daniel?"

    "When you get that look on your face, Marty, I go prune my roses." He went back to a line of bushes with verdant leaves
    and black blooms as large as his head.

    Marty called after him: "Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That's what I'd have told him.
    And those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?"

    Daniel bent to his black roses.

    She stared after him, hands on her hips.

    "Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"

    "The Masters always try to control them, too," she said.

    "That Master is going to have trouble if he tries to mess with that big one," Daniel said, snipping off a ground shoot
    from the root stock of his roses. "My, this is a pretty one."

    "Mentats, too!" Marty called. "I'd have told them. Dime a dozen, they are."

    "Dimes? I don't think they'd have understood that, Marty. The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back."

    "You know what you let get away, Daniel?" she demanded, coming up beside him. "That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest.
    Full of ghola cells, too!"

    "I saw it."

    "That's why you let them get away!"

    "Didn't let them." His pruning shears went snick-snick. "Gholas. He's welcome to them."





    I think this must be our starting point: there is so much implied here ...
    take a line, chew on it, and spit it back out on the table for us to look at ...
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 21 Oct 2010 13:15

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    "No use moaning about it," Daniel said. "They're where we can't touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy."

    ...

    "Dimes? I don't think they'd have understood that, Marty. The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back."



    First, I'm assuming here that Duncan is the big mentat. Having said that...

    Two theories as to why there's all this talk of Thinness:

    A) Judging by the reference to "dimes" and the assertion that Duncan "didn't thin out that far back," Marty and Daniel seem to see multi-dimensionally, meaning that when they look at people they can see their entire past trailing behind them. So basically, Duncan didn't thin out all the way back to the time of dimes. I can't be certain as to whether it's the Net that allows this ability or not.

    B) The thinning-back isn't necessarily a measure of time, but instead it represents how much knowledge Duncan holds. Marty and Daniel can see how much knowledge a person has, or possibly how many lives a person might encompass.

    I'm leaning towards Theory B, personally. But either way, one has to wonder why Daniel seems to suggest that being spread out thinner makes a person easier to catch with their Net. If I recall correctly, Duncan saw the Net stretch or thin-out right before he escaped Chapterhouse, and Daniel was surprised that Duncan had seen this. So, in order to catch a thinned-out person such as Duncan, the net also had to stretch-out.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Oct 2010 13:51

    Couldn't the term "spread thin" be being used in exactly it's common english meaning? Spread thin just means trying to take care of too many things at once, and as such losing a bit of grip on everything. This would line up with the idea that Duncan being spread thin made him easier to catch. If Duncan in good mental health was able to detect and get away from the net, Duncan all stressed out and trying to concentrate on too many things should be easier to catch right?

    EDIT: Not sure how that works with the second quote though, I'll have to re-read this more carefully.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby inhuien » 21 Oct 2010 16:36

    FH wrote:"He surprised me. I knew he saw us but I didn't suspect he saw the net."

    Duncan's abilities surpassed their knowledge, I'd say that's pretty cut and dry.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SadisticCynic » 22 Oct 2010 06:25

    First, I'm assuming here that Duncan is the big mentat.


    Unless there are Mentat Reverend Mothers onboard, this is certainly Duncan; the only other Mentat was Teg, and he was a child i.e. small.

    The Mentat Reverend Mothers were usually in Archives, no? So they are unlikely to have been onboard. The Bene Gesserit onboard were probably analysts (not necessarily a Mentat).

    I've always interpreted 'thin out' to refer to in Time, hence he would not have had the memory from far back enough to recall 'dime a dozen'. The BG stretch out much farther since they have access to ancestral memories.

    (Speculative bit:)
    The Net thinning out, I tentatively attribute to Duncan escaping by taking random decisions. Basically, the Net is a form of prescience (or related directly to the time dimension somehow) or predictability. By making his actions as random as possible i.e. deleting the navcomputer and flying blind they decreased their predictability and escaped the Net.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby lotek » 22 Oct 2010 11:25

    The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back.


    I always pictured the "thin out" bit to be an literal image of how M and D picture time.
    A person would be this kind of form that is unchangeable, and stays within the boundaries of its lifetime. Having serial ghola lives would allow you to "spread" that form, just like you'd spread butter on toast :) You cover more "ground" but with the same amount, as you'd still be the same person.

    There is also the use of the past tense "he didn't thin out that far back". From what I remember from my linguistics courses, the past tense is really a way of saying something isn't true at the time you say it("he was good": "he's not anymore")
    So it's kind of strange not to say "he doesn't thin out that far back".
    But still that doesn't really fit the picture, unless there are some changes at work in Duncan that are not yet evident(and no I am not talking about becoming the kwisatzminator). It's just a shot in the dark as we don't have access to "The Notes" :)
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2010 16:43

    there is no legitimate reason to discuss the alleged "outline" -
    until such time as such a document is produced and validated,
    we will assume Frank Herbert left no notes or outline for "Dune7"
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Drunken Idaho » 22 Oct 2010 16:48

    SadisticCynic wrote:
    First, I'm assuming here that Duncan is the big mentat.


    Unless there are Mentat Reverend Mothers onboard, this is certainly Duncan; the only other Mentat was Teg, and he was a child i.e. small.



    Is it weird that it didn't even occur to me that Daniel meant "big" as in physical size? I always figured he meant "big mentat" as in "better mentat." But I'm thinking you may be right... Did anyone else get that impression, or am I just dim?

    And as for RM's, Daniel's repeated use of "He" rules out that possibility.

    SadisticCynic wrote:I've always interpreted 'thin out' to refer to in Time, hence he would not have had the memory from far back enough to recall 'dime a dozen'. The BG stretch out much farther since they have access to ancestral memories.


    The problem with this theory (even though it was my own) is that I don't see how gathering so many personas gives them the ability to see a person's chronology. I don't think that Marty and Daniel exist outside of time. "They're where we can't touch them now." doesn't sound like something a super-temporal being might say, unless that was just Frank's way of simplifying their metaphysical existence. Like how the Q-Continuum was a lonely gas station on a desert road in the south.

    But, consider this... Marty says, "They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and . . ."

    You have to wonder what the "and..." stands for. She was talking about being independent of the Masters, but the way she trailed off suggests to me that there's more to it. How extensive is their amassed knowledge? On the surface, it doesn't appear to be overly impressive... That is until you consider that Marty and Daniel each have many Reverend Mothers in their persona-banks ("And those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have"). So, instead of a single line of ancestors with only one ancestor living at a time, M & D might have thousands or millions of lines of ancestors, therefore giving them a more complete view of history than any BG. Probably not as extensive as, but in a way more richly-detailed than, Leto II's own ancestral memories.

    SadisticCynic wrote:(Speculative bit:)
    The Net thinning out, I tentatively attribute to Duncan escaping by taking random decisions. Basically, the Net is a form of prescience (or related directly to the time dimension somehow) or predictability. By making his actions as random as possible i.e. deleting the navcomputer and flying blind they decreased their predictability and escaped the Net.


    Considering how little we know about the Net, I'm open to exploring this possibility.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Oct 2010 17:00

    Drunken Idaho wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:
    First, I'm assuming here that Duncan is the big mentat.


    Unless there are Mentat Reverend Mothers onboard, this is certainly Duncan; the only other Mentat was Teg, and he was a child i.e. small.



    Is it weird that it didn't even occur to me that Daniel meant "big" as in physical size? I always figured he meant "big mentat" as in "better mentat." But I'm thinking you may be right... Did anyone else get that impression, or am I just dim?


    No, that's how I took it as well - either way the same conclusion seems likely, though if they did mean Teg they might be hinting at his advanced abilities extending to his mentat-ness.

    EDIT: also ruling out that the Big Mentat could be someone other than those 2 is that they do say both are gholas.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Oct 2010 17:38

    The difficulty with discussing this passage seems to be that there's so much information to be dissected here that we almost need a thread for each bloody paragraph! Here's a stab by me at some of it anyways. (We should also consider numbering the paragraphs like they do in the bible for easier reference)

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
    -The Zensunni Whip


    I'd be interested to see what people think about what this means, specifically in relation to this segment under discussion. I don't have any good ideas formed yet.

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    "You deliberately let them get away, Daniel!"

    The old woman rubbed her hands down the stained front of her garden apron. It was a summer morning around her, flowers blooming,
    birds calling from nearby trees. There was a misty look to the sky, a yellow radiance near the horizon.

    "Now, Marty, it was not deliberate," Daniel said. He took off his porkpie hat and rubbed the bushy stubble of gray hair before replacing the hat.
    "He surprised me. I knew he saw us but I didn't suspect he saw the net."


    Did Daniel let them go deliberately? Or do we believe him when he says that it was an accident? I haven't read this book in a while, so I'm wondering if there's precidence anywhere else in the book that would serve as evidence of him wanting the noship to continue on its way? I lean towards believing Daniel DID in fact let them go.

    This has implications in general plotting for the conclusion, not giant ones necessarily, but it could certainly change a good deal of the story.

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    "And I had such a nice planet picked out for them," Marty said. "One of the best. A real test of their abilities."


    Now THIS is juicy. Marty (or both of them) planned to test the abilities of the noship crew, or at least key members. Test in what way though? Using an entire planet to test them really reminds me of Dune itself, and based on that planet and other books FH wrote using this very favourite idea of his (the killer planet, Dune, Dosadi, Pandora) we can I think pretty safely guess that this planet is not a happy place (or the opposite, is a very nice place but would test them by tempting them to stay rather than do some other important task).

    Whatever we can come up with about this planet, if we decide that the noship does end up there, could become a major section, if not almost all of the conclusion.

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    "I still think you let them escape. You're so anxious to prune your roses!"


    Whatever I think about it, Marty certainly seems convinced that Daniel did let them go - and her take on his motivation seems to be simply that he's stalling, or doesn't want to be involved (based on her statement about him wanting to garden, I take that to mean that she thinks he wanted to garden rather than deal with the ship).

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    "I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: 'What did you expect,
    God Himself with a flowing beard?' "

    Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

    "I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.
    Gather enough of those and . . ."


    This is interesting, because it almost seems like Marty IS implying that they are fulfilling some kind of God role, dispite the earlier statement that they are not gods (though neither was Leto and he certainly filled the role). Her joke seems to imply that a BT Master would be expecting God when he met them, which is weird - that kinda implies that the Master meeting them would have some reason to expect this, would it not? Why would they expect that?

    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    "You know what you let get away, Daniel?" she demanded, coming up beside him. "That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest.
    Full of ghola cells, too!"

    "I saw it."

    "That's why you let them get away!"

    "Didn't let them." His pruning shears went snick-snick. "Gholas. He's welcome to them."


    Marty implying that Daniel would rather prune than deal with the ship seems to pick up weight as the chapter goes on. He keeps trying to dodge conversation by focussing on the roses, and right here at the end, even though he repeats that he didn't let them go (while pruning away, which to me implies that he's lying and this pruning is almost like his "tell") he then immediately states that he wants nothing to do with those gholas, supporting Marty's guess that this might have been another motive for him.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby lotek » 22 Oct 2010 17:42

    SandRider wrote:
    there is no legitimate reason to discuss the alleged "outline" -
    until such time as such a document is produced and validated,
    we will assume Frank Herbert left no notes or outline for "Dune7"


    yeah my bad, I was just being sarcastic is all...

    But I still maintain the rest though :)
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2010 18:12

    Thing wrote:The difficulty with discussing this passage seems to be that there's so much information to be dissected here that we almost need a thread for each bloody paragraph!


    not a bad idea - I'd say go ahead and do that - I don't think we can get very far until we get a consensus on what the logical conclusions
    are that Frank was hinting at here ... at a (much) later time, threads can be merged ....


    I've often thought that "pruning roses" was some kind of metaphor; I'm not convinced of the physical reality of this "location"
    Marty & Daniel are in here in this chapter ...

    I do think "thin out that far back" refers to the sequential memories Duncan carries of his ghola lives - he would "thin out" only back
    to his original life, whereas Reverend Mothers would "thin out" back to their first ancestral memory ...

    it's been too long since I've rest the last two books, as well; I'm of the "Dune was done when Leto fell off the bridge" school, and
    never considered them to be all that important, altho they are certainly great reads ... I've scanned the files a few times, looking
    for specific uses of terms or scenes, but I haven't put myself in the time-period of post-Leto II in awhile .... guess if I'm going to
    moderate this forum with the iron-fist, I should, eh ?

    great discussion here, guys - exactly what I was aiming for ...
    I'm glad to see it's brought Drunken Idaho back to the board ....
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 22 Oct 2010 18:42

    I see a lot of humour in this chapter, actually. Daniel has either messed up, or has deliberately let the no-ship go. Marty's scolding him for not doing what they'd planned. Daniel's concentrating on his roses as a way to avoid talking about it.

    The roses might be a metaphor, but they might just be Daniel's hobby - and his way to ignore Marty when he doesn't want to talk about something.

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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2010 19:07

    HB Jack wrote:and his way to ignore Marty when he doesn't want to talk about something.

    Thing wrote:Marty implying that Daniel would rather prune than deal with the ship seems to pick up weight as the chapter goes on. He keeps trying to dodge conversation by focusing on the roses, and right here at the end, even though he repeats that he didn't let them go (while pruning away, which to me implies that he's lying and this pruning is almost like his "tell") he then immediately states that he wants nothing to do with those gholas, supporting Marty's guess that this might have been another motive for him.


    I agree with this - what I'm saying is .... what space are Daniel and Marty occupying here ?
    Duncan sees them as Grant Wood's America Gothic (or that is implied, I can't seem
    to find the keywords right now to suss out the quote) but what is their true appearance ?

    is this some kind of "metaphysical", alternate/parallel reality, a "dimension" where these
    face dancers have learned not only to manipulate their bodies, but their environment, and so have
    created this "garden" they are in as a common physical reference point for themselves ?

    if so, then Daniel "Pruning roses" may just be the way Marty perceives whatever it is Daniel is doing;
    a way to hang a common language on their actions - that's what I meant by metaphor - is Daniel
    actually pruning a real, physical biological rosebush, or is that just what Marty calls it, the way she
    sees it (and they both could be "seeing" the same thing, or something completely different, filtered
    and "translated" into the other's method of perception - Daniel could be seeing himself building a
    model ship in a bottle, for instance) when what Daniel is actually doing might have something
    to do with the collection of the personas .... "pruning" out bits and pieces or whole personas from
    himself ....

    a "virtual reality" thing; and I hate to do it, but like the way the cylons existed and co-existed with
    each other in the new BSG ...

    which is where I hit a real block with this idea .... Frank doesn't seem to be too fond of a whole
    lot of "magical" plot devices ... alternate/parallel universes is not an idea that seems to fit with Frank's
    thinking ... but there were a lot of changes in him and in general ideas in this type of fiction writing
    between the early 1960s and the mid-80s ....
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby DuneFishUK » 22 Oct 2010 19:34

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
    -The Zensunni Whip


    I'd be interested to see what people think about what this means, specifically in relation to this segment under discussion. I don't have any good ideas formed yet.

    Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 22 Oct 2010 22:04

    DuneFishUK wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
    -The Zensunni Whip


    I'd be interested to see what people think about what this means, specifically in relation to this segment under discussion. I don't have any good ideas formed yet.

    Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?


    Yes. In the sense that paired opposites are poles of one thing , and your attachments to things are what, in the Buddhist ideology, keep you trapped on the wheel.
    In relation to this segment, it could be pointing to the readers' inability to see things as the really are while labouring under the physical-plane restrictions of incarnation.
    That's my take, anyway.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 22 Oct 2010 22:32

    Random thought. Sorry, I know this is long and not very coherent. My comments mostly concern Daniel's and Marty's intentions, and in their relationship to each other.

    (There's the whole other question of whether this chapter is Frank's way of saying goodbye to Dune; that Daniel and Marty represent Frank and Beverly, and the no-ship's escape from D & M represents the release of the Dune creators' hold on their creation. As interesting - and, in a way, desirable - that idea is, it runs counter to the intention of this thread, I expect. So I'll say no more about it).

    "You deliberately let them get away, Daniel!"

    The old woman rubbed her hands down the stained front of her garden apron. It was a summer morning around her, flowers blooming, birds calling from nearby trees. There was a misty look to the sky, a yellow radiance near the horizon.


    Call me superficial, but I don't think there's anything too complicated going on with respect to the setting. I think Daniel and Marty are where they appear to be - on some quite nice planet, deep in the Scattering, living a life largely of peace and tranquility. Daniel and Marty are powerful beings - so powerful that they are free to live as they wish, intervening only when they deem it necessary. And Daniel is free to spend time pruning his roses.

    "Now, Marty, it was not deliberate," Daniel said. He took off his porkpie hat and rubbed the bushy stubble of gray hair before replacing the hat.
    "He surprised me. I knew he saw us but I didn't suspect he saw the net."


    I love the detail of the porkpie hat.

    There's little doubt that D & M want to capture the no-ship, but I'm not sure whether the "net" is a literal net (i.e. the capturing device), or whether it's just a name of their monitoring device. Perhaps a discussion for another thread, with references to other chapters?

    "And I had such a nice planet picked out for them," Marty said. "One of the best. A real test of their abilities."


    AToE is right: this is such a juicy sentence. I'm always a bit leery of trying to give *too* much significance to individual words or phrases, but ...
    * It's *Marty* who has picked out the planet. Is capturing them her plan? It Daniel a (reluctant?) partner?
    * A real question here is what Marty's intention is. Is the planet the "best" *because* it will test them? Does she have a reason to test them - to strengthen them, to activate some hidden ability - or is she just playing a perverse game? Did Marty want the no-ship's occupants for their personas, and then put them on the planet afterward, like cats playing with a dead mouse?

    "No use moaning about it," Daniel said. "They're where we can't touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy."


    One reason they might not be able to touch them now is that their ability to monitor the ship relies on the ship's navigational computers. When Duncan dumped all the data, they could no longer view the ship or its occupants.

    The implication I read here is that Duncan is somehow easier to catch than the others. He's being singled out here - "they" are out of their reach, but "he" was expected to be easy to catch.

    "They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."


    I'm tempted to infer that she saw the Master only because they went "under the net". This would indicate that the net is a scanning device (at least).

    "Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way and you know it!
    If it weren't for them . . ."


    Grudging respect for their creators, even though they've surpassed them in abilities.

    Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

    "I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.
    Gather enough of those and . . ."


    I think this sentence ends something like: "... you can't help but see your own captivity, and gain the ability to escape it." Absorbing personas may have other effects, but I think the main one Marty is concerned with here is that of gaining independence.

    "It's personas we take, Marty."

    "Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

    "And theirs?"

    "Oh, I'd have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn't that right, Daniel?"

    "When you get that look on your face, Marty, I go prune my roses." He went back to a line of bushes with verdant leaves
    and black blooms as large as his head.


    This is a fascinating exchange. I wonder whether the line "You can do just so much managing of others" is something *Daniel* has said to *Marty* in the past, and she's feeding it right back to him, with heavy sarcasm.

    I tend to think Marty is the schemer, using their abilities and/or tech to manipulate events, and Daniel is more restrained. Perhaps they've had arguments in the past about whether to interfere. Daniel now has (deliberately) thwarted Marty's plans again, and she's none too happy. And he knows he's in trouble. :)

    "Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"


    The word "play" is significant here, I think. Daniel may be disapproving of what Marty does with their captives.

    "You know what you let get away, Daniel?" she demanded, coming up beside him. "That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest.
    Full of ghola cells, too!"

    "I saw it."

    "That's why you let them get away!"

    "Didn't let them." His pruning shears went snick-snick. "Gholas. He's welcome to them."


    Why would Daniel let them get away because of the ghola cells? Did he not want Marty to have the gholas' personas?

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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Oct 2010 00:05

    DuneFishUK wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
    -The Zensunni Whip


    I'd be interested to see what people think about what this means, specifically in relation to this segment under discussion. I don't have any good ideas formed yet.

    Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?


    Right, nothing to clear it up like a quote in a language I don't speak! :lol: (I'm guessing this is a common quote? Never heard it before).
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Oct 2010 00:09

    SandRider wrote:
    HB Jack wrote:and his way to ignore Marty when he doesn't want to talk about something.

    Thing wrote:Marty implying that Daniel would rather prune than deal with the ship seems to pick up weight as the chapter goes on. He keeps trying to dodge conversation by focusing on the roses, and right here at the end, even though he repeats that he didn't let them go (while pruning away, which to me implies that he's lying and this pruning is almost like his "tell") he then immediately states that he wants nothing to do with those gholas, supporting Marty's guess that this might have been another motive for him.


    I agree with this - what I'm saying is .... what space are Daniel and Marty occupying here ?
    Duncan sees them as Grant Wood's America Gothic (or that is implied, I can't seem
    to find the keywords right now to suss out the quote) but what is their true appearance ?

    is this some kind of "metaphysical", alternate/parallel reality, a "dimension" where these
    face dancers have learned not only to manipulate their bodies, but their environment, and so have
    created this "garden" they are in as a common physical reference point for themselves ?

    if so, then Daniel "Pruning roses" may just be the way Marty perceives whatever it is Daniel is doing;
    a way to hang a common language on their actions - that's what I meant by metaphor - is Daniel
    actually pruning a real, physical biological rosebush, or is that just what Marty calls it, the way she
    sees it (and they both could be "seeing" the same thing, or something completely different, filtered
    and "translated" into the other's method of perception - Daniel could be seeing himself building a
    model ship in a bottle, for instance) when what Daniel is actually doing might have something
    to do with the collection of the personas .... "pruning" out bits and pieces or whole personas from
    himself ....

    a "virtual reality" thing; and I hate to do it, but like the way the cylons existed and co-existed with
    each other in the new BSG ...

    which is where I hit a real block with this idea .... Frank doesn't seem to be too fond of a whole
    lot of "magical" plot devices ... alternate/parallel universes is not an idea that seems to fit with Frank's
    thinking ... but there were a lot of changes in him and in general ideas in this type of fiction writing
    between the early 1960s and the mid-80s ....


    I hear what you're saying, and I do get some of that vibe as well, though I can't say why. I wouldn't say alternate universe, more along the lines of shared hallucination (BSG style but not digital) - the whole scene has a dreamlike quality to it, a haziness that implies non-reality to me. I think the idea that this is some kind of telepathic "playground" where the two of them can converse feels right, and would fit with the idea of those roses representing something else - though I'm not sure what, don't know about that memory/persona idea.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandChigger » 23 Oct 2010 01:26

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    DuneFishUK wrote:Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?

    Right, nothing to clear it up like a quote in a language I don't speak! :lol: (I'm guessing this is a common quote? Never heard it before).

    It's the Roman poet Catullus, Carmen 85:

    Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?
    nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.


    I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
    I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.


    :)

    People miss a lot, not doing Latin anymore. :(
    Last edited by SandChigger on 23 Oct 2010 01:41, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Oct 2010 01:28

    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    DuneFishUK wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?

    Right, nothing to clear it up like a quote in a language I don't speak! :lol: (I'm guessing this is a common quote? Never heard it before).

    It's the Roman poet Catullus, Carmen 85:

    Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?
    nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.


    I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
    I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.


    :)

    People miss a lot, not doing Latin anymore. :(


    I still don't get it. :?

    Latin would be cool to know more of, my girlfriend took a bunch when she was going into medicine, but now that's veered off into primatology/anthropology, so no more Latin.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandChigger » 23 Oct 2010 01:49

    Paired opposites (the poet both loved and hated the woman ... I think her name was Livinia?) defined his longings and imprisoned him in an excruciating relationship. :)
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Omphalos » 23 Oct 2010 03:21

    I love Catullus. Especially the later stuff where he is talking about raping her in the ass because she left him for the charms of the isle of Lesbos.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Shaitan » 23 Oct 2010 05:46

    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    DuneFishUK wrote:Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?

    Right, nothing to clear it up like a quote in a language I don't speak! :lol: (I'm guessing this is a common quote? Never heard it before).

    It's the Roman poet Catullus, Carmen 85:

    Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?
    nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.


    I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
    I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.


    :)

    People miss a lot, not doing Latin anymore. :(


    I took three years of Latin in high school, and got straight D-minuses throughout. I loved every impossible to remember minute of that excruciatingly weird language that our even weirder language derives from.

    Semper ubi sub ubi (very bad transliteration joke). Semper carpe puellam.

    Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim.

    Totally worth sweating out six semesters for.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby DuneFishUK » 23 Oct 2010 06:27

    Shaitan wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    DuneFishUK wrote:Something in the same vein as "Odi et amo. Excrucior."?

    Right, nothing to clear it up like a quote in a language I don't speak! :lol: (I'm guessing this is a common quote? Never heard it before).

    It's the Roman poet Catullus, Carmen 85:

    Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?
    nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.


    I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
    I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.


    :)

    People miss a lot, not doing Latin anymore. :(


    I took three years of Latin in high school, and got straight D-minuses throughout. I loved every impossible to remember minute of that excruciatingly weird language that our even weirder language derives from.

    Semper ubi sub ubi (very bad transliteration joke). Semper carpe puellam.

    Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim.

    Totally worth sweating out six semesters for.

    I did latin :) But it is also a Dune quote - It this another one of the UK exclusives? :?

    I was being lazy I'll did dig out the full quote... Here:

    Chapter 24 wrote:Every time he recognized this Bene Gesserit change, he felt sad.
    Nearer the day of our parting.
    But Murbella was talking. "She (Odrade was often 'she') keeps asking me to
    assess my love for you."
    Remembering this, Idaho allowed it to replay.
    "She has tried the same approach with me."
    "What do you say?"
    "Odi et amo. Excrucior."
    She lifted herself on one elbow and looked down at him. "What language is
    that?"
    "A very old one Leto had me learn once."
    "Translate." Peremptory. Her old Honored Matre self.
    " 'I hate her and I love her. And I am racked.' "
    "Do you really hate me?" Unbelieving.
    "What I hate is being tied this way, not the master of my self."
    "Would you leave me if you could?"
    "I want the decision to recur moment by moment. I want control of it."
    "It's a game where one of the pieces can't be moved."
    There it was! Her words.
    Remembering, Idaho felt no elation but as though his eyes had suddenly been
    opened after a long sleep. A game where one of the pieces can't be moved.
    Game. His view of the no-ship and what the Sisterhood did here.

    Looks to me like a running theme though.
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