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    Chapterhouse:Dune_48

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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Omphalos » 09 May 2013 13:34

    Beowulf? I read a few of those shitty H&A books, but I do not remember a Beowulf character. I guess the purge has started taking hold!
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Nameless Swordsman » 10 May 2013 00:53

    Omphalos wrote:Beowulf? I read a few of those shitty H&A books, but I do not remember a Beowulf character. I guess the purge has started taking hold!


    What kind of arguments do the Preek fans have in regards to Marty and Daniel's Tleilaxu Masters?

    I think while I'm at it, I will head over to Dunenovels to see if they've addressed this gaping hole.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Nameless Swordsman » 10 May 2013 02:57

    From the wiki:

    Daniel is a entity that appears in Duncan Idaho's visions, when the no-ship, the Ithaca, was being chased and trying to be encaptured by Daniel and Marty. Daniel appears as a homely, elderly man alongside his long-time female companion, Marty.


    Omnius

    Daniel was a human guise worn by the re-born Thinking Machine ruler, Omnius. Throughout the centuries, Omnius, and his companion, the re-born Erasmus, had been absorbing personalities they have acquired from Enhanced Face Dancers.



    Wow, Brian and Kevin piggy-backed Frank's idea. :|
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 May 2013 06:11

    They don't have any REAL arguments.

    Preek Arguments
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby distrans » 18 Jan 2014 00:20

    thin out... that far back

    this always struck me
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 26 Oct 2014 22:42

    This person, "Today," brought me back to some good threads.. The "thin out" bit- that applies to Duncan as an individual, right? I seem to remember something about too little butter being spread out over too much bread, and I think that's from the Dune books, but maybe I'm off. Not sure why he would be spread out too thin, really. Was the God Emperor spread out too thin?
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby xcalibur » 10 Apr 2016 11:19

    (I'm not sure where to post this so I'll post here)

    Marty & Daniel were definitely Face Dancers. there are numerous blatant clues towards this:

    *the humming/whistling language used by the Masters to control Face Dancers
    *the enemy of many faces
    *face dancers breaking free from control by Masters
    *I forget where, but heretics has foreshadowing of how face dancers could take on everything, including memories, and become their target

    but there are larger points to be made.

    the tachyon net seems to work through prescience/other memory. this is suggested by Duncan deleting the star charts/nav system which would make their trajectory unpredictable, thus immune to prescience. not only that, but M&D suggested that he'd be easier to catch because he's "spread out so thin" which references his numerous past ghola lives and his memory of them.

    in addition:

    *the mentat projection that "someone out there has found a new way to utilize holzmann's theories".
    *tachyon theory involves waves that ignore the speed of light.
    *the Ixians created machines to fill the role of Guild Navigators.
    *Holzmann's theories are utilized but not properly understood.

    and the following quote from near the end of heretics:

    We are not looking at a new state of matter but at a newly recognized relationship between consciousness and matter, which provides a more penetrating insight into the workings of prescience. The oracle shapes a projected inner universe to produce new external probabilities out of forces that are not understood. There is no need to understand these forces before using them to shape the physical universe. Ancient metal workers had no need to understand the molecular and submolecular complexities of their steel, bronze, copper, gold, and tin. They invented mystical powers to describe the unknown while they continued to operate their forges and wield their hammers.
    -Mother Superior Taraza, Argument in Council


    this suggests that while prescience is experienced in a mystic way, there is a scientific explanation behind it.

    I'm not a mentat, but here's my projection: prescience and other memory work by connecting the mind to tachyon waves. by ignoring relativity, it would connect the prescient to innumerable times and places, with the individual's genetic makeup/training/intention tending to limit and/or direct their observations of the universe and the minds of others. that's how the kwisatz haderach was many places at once. Marty & Daniel's gathering of numerous personas and knowledge, combined with new Holzmann experiments, allowed them to rise to the level of Kwisatz Haderach.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Apr 2016 17:46

    xcalibur wrote:(I'm not sure where to post this so I'll post here)
    I'm not a mentat, but here's my projection: prescience and other memory work by connecting the mind to tachyon waves. by ignoring relativity, it would connect the prescient to innumerable times and places, with the individual's genetic makeup/training/intention tending to limit and/or direct their observations of the universe and the minds of others. that's how the kwisatz haderach was many places at once. Marty & Daniel's gathering of numerous personas and knowledge, combined with new Holzmann experiments, allowed them to rise to the level of Kwisatz Haderach.


    The working theory I'm working under right now as I begin CH:D again is close to this, which is that consciousness is already entwines with tachyons, and that the power of prescience (for for Navigators and the KH) employs these to obtain remote information. This assumption would also corroborate a theory Freak posited a while back, which is that prescience gives vision of both the future and the past, which tachyons would do since you could use FTL observation to check remote locations in space containing data from past events. The ability to look into the past might be limited, mind you, to a scale such as thousands of years, depending on whether FH had in his mind that tachyons are FTL but in a limited capacity. Data from millions of years ago might be 'too far' away to detect, whereas for the BG they obviously have detailed information going back hundreds of thousands of years or maybe more (memories of being chimpanzees?).

    We might even go further than this and suggest that a corollary might be that a person's consciousness is non-linear and non-local and that it somehow retroactively exists in previous lives. This could be true of serial gholas as well as other memory, and would explain why someone with memory of previous lives would be more easily detected and likewise have an easier time detecting M&D. It would also help explain the extraordinarily strange presence of Alia in Mohiam's other memory in Dune, which at the time seemed like sorcery or something. I'm not sure whether Frank really thought that far ahead or had a concrete explanation behind what Alia did at that time, but it could fit.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Apr 2016 05:24

    georgiedenbro wrote:This assumption would also corroborate a theory Freak posited a while back, which is that prescience gives vision of both the future and the past, which tachyons would do since you could use FTL observation to check remote locations in space containing data from past events. The ability to look into the past might be limited, mind you, to a scale such as thousands of years, depending on whether FH had in his mind that tachyons are FTL but in a limited capacity. Data from millions of years ago might be 'too far' away to detect, whereas for the BG they obviously have detailed information going back hundreds of thousands of years or maybe more (memories of being chimpanzees?).


    It's not really a theory if it's in the text :wink:

    The vision absorbed him. It evolved into a stereologic memory which
    separated past and present, future and present, future and past. Each separation
    mingled into a trinocular focus which he sensed as the multidimensional relief
    map of his own future existence.
    He thought: Time is a measure of space, just as a range finder is a measure
    of space, but measuring locks us into the place we measure.

    ~CoD

    As to distance limits:

    In an old voice, Leto said: "There's no single set of limits for all men.
    Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of
    Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that
    your mind shrinks from it."

    ~CoD

    and how far back OM can go:

    Leto's great body trembled through its entire length at this thought. He well
    knew the antidote which had always worked before: lose himself for a time in his
    own past. Not even the Bene Gesserit Sisters could take such safaris, striking
    inward along the axis of memories-back, back to the very limits of cellular
    awareness
    , or stopping by a wayside to revel in a sophisticated sensory delight.
    Once, after the death of a particularly superb Duncan, he had toured great
    musical performances preserved in his memories. Mozart had tired him quickly.
    Pretentious! But Bach . . . ahhh, Bach.

    ~GEoD
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby xcalibur » 11 Apr 2016 08:35

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    xcalibur wrote:(I'm not sure where to post this so I'll post here)
    I'm not a mentat, but here's my projection: prescience and other memory work by connecting the mind to tachyon waves. by ignoring relativity, it would connect the prescient to innumerable times and places, with the individual's genetic makeup/training/intention tending to limit and/or direct their observations of the universe and the minds of others. that's how the kwisatz haderach was many places at once. Marty & Daniel's gathering of numerous personas and knowledge, combined with new Holzmann experiments, allowed them to rise to the level of Kwisatz Haderach.


    The working theory I'm working under right now as I begin CH:D again is close to this, which is that consciousness is already entwines with tachyons, and that the power of prescience (for for Navigators and the KH) employs these to obtain remote information. This assumption would also corroborate a theory Freak posited a while back, which is that prescience gives vision of both the future and the past, which tachyons would do since you could use FTL observation to check remote locations in space containing data from past events. The ability to look into the past might be limited, mind you, to a scale such as thousands of years, depending on whether FH had in his mind that tachyons are FTL but in a limited capacity. Data from millions of years ago might be 'too far' away to detect, whereas for the BG they obviously have detailed information going back hundreds of thousands of years or maybe more (memories of being chimpanzees?).

    We might even go further than this and suggest that a corollary might be that a person's consciousness is non-linear and non-local and that it somehow retroactively exists in previous lives. This could be true of serial gholas as well as other memory, and would explain why someone with memory of previous lives would be more easily detected and likewise have an easier time detecting M&D. It would also help explain the extraordinarily strange presence of Alia in Mohiam's other memory in Dune, which at the time seemed like sorcery or something. I'm not sure whether Frank really thought that far ahead or had a concrete explanation behind what Alia did at that time, but it could fit.


    we're on the same page, then.

    my consciousness-tachyon connection theory ties things up nicely, and it has alot of support in the text. presumably spice melange activates/heightens that connection.

    I stated that an individuals ability/intention/training/genetics factor into prescience/other memory. to elaborate, I believe the kwizatz haderach superhumans, bene gesserit, the guild, and others all utilize the same consiousness-tachyon mechanic, but in different ways. the guild rely on it mainly to chart trajectories through space. they usually limit themselves to this role, although they are capable of using the connection in other ways (eg the guild navigators at the end of Dune glance ahead to see that Paul Muad'dib is not bluffing about the Water of Death). the Bene Gesserit use this connection to focus on human minds, with genetics guiding their focus. This definitely explains Other Memory, and it may also play a role in "witchcraft" such as Voice and Truthtelling.

    Therefore, it's true that the "Guild emphasizes almost pure mathematics" while Bene Gesserit focus on "politics". The hidden meaning is that the Guild uses conscious tachyons for mathematical prediction while the Bene Gesserit uses them to understand and work with human minds.

    the Ixian navigation machines also worked with tachyons, as did no-rooms/no-ships. I assume no-ships used a tachyon-based distortion field to make it difficult or impossible to "see" through it.

    the Kwisatz Haderach was supposed to be a superweapon for the Bene Gesserit, but his prescient field of vision was expanded to the point where Paul Muad'dib became too powerful for them to control. the Bene Gesserit knew genetics and training would improve the connection, but the combination of this with spice melange provided him with greater power than they predicted.

    Leto II of course had the greatest consciousness-tachyon connection of all, which allowed him extensive access to the past and future. this allowed him to see that which no one was looking for and not even Paul Maud'dib found - arafel, the apocalypse, in which Ixian hunter-seeker machines exterminated the human race, then eventually broke down, ending all advanced life and civilization in the galaxy. preventing that necessitated Leto's Peace and the Scattering.

    it would've been interesting to learn more about the former Face Dancers Daniel & Marty, their status as Kwisatz Haderach superhumans (which I'm certain of), and how far they had taken the tachyon connection (farther than Maud'dib or even Leto II?). but, attitude of the knife, c'est la vie and all that.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby georgiedenbro » 11 Apr 2016 09:19

    I still think, at least for now, that "the net" is a reference to Dune: Appendix II, where Paul said he would cast his thoughts through time like a net, pulling in possibilities. That would, indeed, mean that M&D can do at the very least the same thing as Paul. Also something I missed before is the fact that M&D are farmers in their little setting, which is what Teg in Heretics says multiple times describes the BG. Since we are basically told in CH:D that anyone who goes through the agony is more or less automatically a BG, it would stand to reason that by conducting farming of their own that M&D are, indeed, functioning as BG in their own way.

    My question would be whether they found a way to synthesize spice, or whether they have an alternative or don't need it at all any more. We know axlotl tanks can produce it, so maybe a Face Dancer could create such a womb in themselves? That would make them a bit like Leto II as well.
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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandRider » 24 Apr 2016 22:19

    SandRider wrote:
    in the last chapter of the Dune Chronicles, Frank Herbert wrote:
    Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
    -The Zensunni Whip



    "You deliberately let them get away, Daniel!"

    The old woman rubbed her hands down the stained front of her garden apron. It was a summer morning around her, flowers blooming,
    birds calling from nearby trees. There was a misty look to the sky, a yellow radiance near the horizon.

    "Now, Marty, it was not deliberate," Daniel said. He took off his porkpie hat and rubbed the bushy stubble of gray hair before replacing the hat.
    "He surprised me. I knew he saw us but I didn't suspect he saw the net."

    "And I had such a nice planet picked out for them," Marty said. "One of the best. A real test of their abilities."

    "No use moaning about it," Daniel said. "They're where we can't touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy."

    "They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."

    "Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way and you know it!
    If it weren't for them . . ."

    "They're not gods, Daniel."

    "Neither are we."

    "I still think you let them escape. You're so anxious to prune your roses!"

    "What would you have said to the Master, anyway?" Daniel asked.

    "I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: 'What did you expect,
    God Himself with a flowing beard?' "

    Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

    "I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.
    Gather enough of those and . . ."

    "It's personas we take, Marty."

    "Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

    "And theirs?"

    "Oh, I'd have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn't that right, Daniel?"

    "When you get that look on your face, Marty, I go prune my roses." He went back to a line of bushes with verdant leaves
    and black blooms as large as his head.

    Marty called after him: "Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That's what I'd have told him.
    And those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?"

    Daniel bent to his black roses.

    She stared after him, hands on her hips.

    "Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"

    "The Masters always try to control them, too," she said.

    "That Master is going to have trouble if he tries to mess with that big one," Daniel said, snipping off a ground shoot
    from the root stock of his roses. "My, this is a pretty one."

    "Mentats, too!" Marty called. "I'd have told them. Dime a dozen, they are."

    "Dimes? I don't think they'd have understood that, Marty. The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back."

    "You know what you let get away, Daniel?" she demanded, coming up beside him. "That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest.
    Full of ghola cells, too!"

    "I saw it."

    "That's why you let them get away!"

    "Didn't let them." His pruning shears went snick-snick. "Gholas. He's welcome to them."




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    Re: Chapterhouse:Dune_48

    Postby SandRider » 24 Apr 2016 22:20

    SandRider wrote:I am the WaterMaster of this Tribe.

    I come claiming water-rings.
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
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