Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

There are a couple of things that keep cropping up, but I don't think I've ever seen any direct quotes for:

1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

2. The HLP forced WEM to sign the letter declaring the DE officially non-canon.

Sources anyone?

I've seen posts on a blog or something by him where he essentially says that the HLP fucked him over and he hates them. But I'd have to track those down and I can't remember where I found them.

DuneFishUK wrote:
1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

The neat thing about the DE is that it it's in-universe perspective. It reads as if it were an encyclopedia like any other, but written and compiled by post-scattering era historians and scientists. Read one of the entries about Atreides, Paul and you get the inconsistencies and speculations of thousands of years of legends. I don't always find it illuminating, but it knows it's place and is generally very intelligent. Mohiam as Jessica's mother is one of those things.

Yes, but DuneFish is referring to a rumour that the author convinced FH to leave it in as a joke - which would mean that it is blatantly not what FH had in mind - which means the hacks fucked it up when they wrote about it in their books.

Look here:

http://www.thestargates.com/dune/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DuneFishUK wrote:There are a couple of things that keep cropping up, but I don't think I've ever seen any direct quotes for:

1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

KJA mentioned this at D*C, saying it's in "The Notes".

2. The HLP forced WEM to sign the letter declaring the DE officially non-canon.

Sources anyone?

He also mentioned the copywrite issues the HLP and WEM had.

Omphalos wrote:Look here:

http://www.thestargates.com/dune/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fantastic - I thought we'd lost that site.

I love how uncomfortable the DE makes Anderjacket and Bobo ... especially The Hack. He mentioned it just the other day in his Twatter feed, and, of course, it's still right there on the Dunenovels FAQ page, being discredited (for anyone who buys their line of bullshit, that is).

DuneFishUK wrote:

Omphalos wrote:Look here:

http://www.thestargates.com/dune/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fantastic - I thought we'd lost that site.

since it keeps going away I downloaded the entire thing a few months ago (along with about 50 other sites that seem to be fleeting). If it ever disappears again, we will still have it. Ill be updating the links at the secondary sources page to refer to the archived copy as soon as I can get to it.

DuneFishUK wrote:

Omphalos wrote:Look here:

http://www.thestargates.com/dune/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fantastic - I thought we'd lost that site.

yes thanks a lot for that, I just had a quick look before going to bed in my very own time zone and it looks really interesting.
As we cannot count on Bobo to give us a proper account of his father(I mean if he could talk sense we'd have heard about it by now), this should help with some true insight.

Wow, I liked the stuff McNelly has on some non-SF literature like Ulysses, which I'm reading now.


The Common Reader amd Ulysses
some preliminary thoughts by

Willis E. McNelly

I sometimes think that if I could codify the rules which James Joyce lived by and delineate the artistic credo which ruled his life and formed the heart of his artistic creations, I would suggest that they comprise many opposites: his humanity coupled with his hauteur: his continual exile from Ireland and Dublin coupled with his penetration into the depths of the Irish psyche and the Celtic soul; his fascination with language juxtaposed against his mastery of it.

To be sure, he was Irish -- all too Irish as one of his characters puts it -- but he might have needed to distance himself from the bustling Hibernian metropolis in order to see it clearly, in order to love it boldly, deeply, and profoundly.

lf he had to fly the nets, he fled to freedom, but the nets remained the heart and soul of his work. Ireland may have been the old sow that eats its farrow, but it was also the warp and woof of the fabric of humanity that provided the artistic canvas upon which he painted the portrait of the artist as an artist, and delineated the portrait of the eternal male Poldy - and the eternal female - Molly, both magnificent human beings. Above all, I would try to emphasize Joyce's humanity - a somewhat defiant humanity to be sure, an independent one albeit perhaps a bit ambivalent about the turf that spawned him, but above all a humane humanity that he created when he put Leopold Bloom and his wife, Marion, known now to most of the world as it ""Molly" in that now, alas, destroyed flat on 7 Eccles street, and set Bloom off to become the unconquered hero, the most ordinary extraordinary human ever to grace the pages of a novel. For Ulysses is a novel so crammed with human figures that it continues to command its readers' attention even after the tenth -or even hundredth reading.

Yet for all of its artistic accolades on the part of its scholars, the Joycean elect who quarrel over commas and argue about who is doing what to whom in some of the pages in the scene in the brothel, Ulysses remains one of the most unread great books of the western world. Indeed, I would suggest that the book shelves of the English speaking world are replete with copies of the old Modern Library edition of the novel, a paper clip or some other book mark indicating where the Common Reader left off, perhaps dozing as Mr. Deasy became oracular somewhere in the second chapter of the book. Indeed, the CR might have set the book down early in chapter three, losing Stephen Dedalus somewhere on the sands of a beach in Dublin, wondering what the hell Joyce meant when he has Stephen say, "Ineluctable modality of the visible."

Why is this great novel so unread? Why is it so praised, yet so neglected by the CR who will accept abstraction in Hindemuth, Debussy, or even some of Bach's chorale preludes or great fugues, and pay millions for an impressionist painting or a Picasso of the Cubist period? Why can we accept abstraction, impressionism or complication in painting or music yet deny it in the novel? Is Ulysses THAT difficult to understand? It is THAT complex? Is Joyce's humor - nay his humanity - so abstract that it requires one virtual interlinear crib after another so we may comprehend it? Indeed, is it possible that for all of the praise given to the great Irish master, his supreme achievement, Ulysses, is doomed to being dissected by graduate students, its brilliance and magnificence forever denied to the very humans Joyce celebrates?

Yet I do not believe that Ulysses should forever remain the great "unread". I firmly believe that it can offer any relatively intelligent, patient reader more than virtually any other book written this century. I would like to suggest, in fact, that its "difficulties" have been largely overstated, that it can provide continual hours, or even years of enjoyment with only a modicum of difficulty. Thus in THE COMMON READER AND ULYSSES, I would like to suggest some meanings I find in the novel, meanings gleaned from more than a hundred close readings of the book coupled with teaching it scores of times.

What then is Ulysses about? Most relativeLy literate people at least know that it tells the story of one man, a certain Leopold Bloom, a Jew in Roman Catholic Dublin, as he goes about his work one day in mid-June, 1904. It traces him from the time he makes his wife Molly her breakfast in bed in the morning to his return to that same bed some 20 hours later after a day filled with the most mundane ordinary events, eventually asking his wife to make his breakfast the next morning.

Freakzilla wrote:

DuneFishUK wrote:There are a couple of things that keep cropping up, but I don't think I've ever seen any direct quotes for:

1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

KJA mentioned this at D*C, saying it's in "The Notes".

He's full of shit if he thought that would make it into a book even if it was in the notes. There's no way that through out Paul and Alia's dealings with the RM throughout Dune Messiah that it wouldn't have at least been mentioned in their thoughts. Man, I hate that guy.

Nekhrun wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

DuneFishUK wrote:There are a couple of things that keep cropping up, but I don't think I've ever seen any direct quotes for:

1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

KJA mentioned this at D*C, saying it's in "The Notes".

He's full of shit if he thought that would make it into a book even if it was in the notes. There's no way that through out Paul and Alia's dealings with the RM throughout Dune Messiah that it wouldn't have at least been mentioned in their thoughts. Man, I hate that guy.

He has said that before... he also said they'd written it before they found the notes. Spooky.

DuneFishUK wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

DuneFishUK wrote:There are a couple of things that keep cropping up, but I don't think I've ever seen any direct quotes for:

1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

KJA mentioned this at D*C, saying it's in "The Notes".

He's full of shit if he thought that would make it into a book even if it was in the notes. There's no way that through out Paul and Alia's dealings with the RM throughout Dune Messiah that it wouldn't have at least been mentioned in their thoughts. Man, I hate that guy.

He has said that before... he also said they'd written it before they found the notes. Spooky.

He said as much at D*C also, and when they found the notes saying this that it indicated they were on the right track.

If we follow that formula to its conclusion:

KJA: Jessica is Mohaim's daughter! lets do it that way, then we can have an uber gross seduction scene with Baron Vlady! Hey look! right here in Frank's notes under "things i told McNelly to take out of the DE" it says Jessica is Mohaim's daughter! WE'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK! Hey, you know what would be cool ROBOT TRANSVESTITES! WE'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!

DuneFishUK wrote:There are a couple of things that keep cropping up, but I don't think I've ever seen any direct quotes for:

1. Mohiam being Jessica's Mother: WEM convinced FH to let it pass as a joke.

2. The HLP forced WEM to sign the letter declaring the DE officially non-canon.

Sources anyone?

You know, I've often heard of this supposed fact since I've joined the OH Dune fandom, but have yet to see a source. I'm inclined to believe it's made-up, considering I'm writing a ton of articles on rumours right now so I'm disillusioned by any hope.

If there's anything that would confirm this, it's probably in the alt.fan.dune archives. (Possibly a direct posting from McNelly?) I've never been able to find it, though.

Master B posted that he had a link or quote that he would look for, but I'm not aware that he found it...

I've never seen any suck proof either.

"such proof", right ?

I can show you suck proof, but you won't like it ...

hey, google image "suck proof" + "you're doing it wrong" ....

SandRider wrote:hey, google image "suck proof" + "you're doing it wrong" ....

Not on an office PC!

Freakzilla wrote:any suck proof

INteresting typo.

I could easily see this becoming an important concept/term in Mc-Dune criticism: proof of suck.

SandChigger wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:any suck proof

INteresting typo.

I could easily see this becoming an important concept/term in Mc-Dune criticism: proof of suck.

Just make sure I get credit.