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    The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

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    Postby SandRider » 16 Dec 2008 00:20

    "Carl", right ?
    From Over There, maybe once:

    Carl wrote:The movie version must podrtray a real representation of the future human. Remember, thousands of years from now humans will be faster, thinner, and the HM and BG should have terrifying prescence at opposites. Murbella will be a hard choice for actresses and Odrade needs to be a skilled, award winning actress. This story needs mega production money to create a completly futruristic world and focus on the internalized thoughts and feelings in a completely new and creative way. It needs to be a real classic. It needs to have the feel the Matrix gave us. Sheer speed, fast killing, new breed of human, etc. The scenes need to be on real locations (similar to Jesus Christ Superstar) not in some cheesy Hollywood set. They need actors who can do the job and a writer that can't lose focus of the integrity of such a story.

    It can't be done by a has-been. It must be done by the most creative, intellectual writers that can be found. Don't dissapoint us.


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    Postby Wonder » 16 Dec 2008 14:01

    I love your picture. But, I'm confused by the question.

    Boy, can I spell or what!!! Nothing like NOT using spellcheck, huh?

    Anyway, another thought came to mind. Does anybody remember the movie Kill Bill? The first one. In the very first fight scene between Thurman and 'Vernita' in that nice little suburban house, they were incredibly matched and the fight was thrilling. AND it was a fight to kill. This is the sort of terrifying speed and determination and the talents of the evolved human the new movie must show. Everyone in the books was afraid of the big, bad BG and if KillB was any indication of a woman scorned, ha! I'd be afraid of the future of the female. I'd probably hide behind a bush every time a woman walked by if I lived a thousand years from now. Terrifying thoughts.

    Again, this new adaption must not only somehow externalize the internalizations, it absolutely has to give us, physically, a real chill, real goosebumps.
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    Postby SandRider » 16 Dec 2008 14:06

    the question is fairly straightforward -

    are you, "Wonder", the same person, "Carl", who posted at dunenovels.com ?
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    Postby Wonder » 16 Dec 2008 14:12

    Yes, how did you know? Do you have prescience?

    Don't criticize my spelling, please........

    That picture is awesome, by the way.
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    Postby SandRider » 16 Dec 2008 14:35

    I'm a bloodhound.
    I'll give you a few days to figure it out.
    (hint - not the spelling)




    (check out the big picture I lifted it from -
    in Dune Media somewhere, one of TMB's posts)
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    Postby Wonder » 16 Dec 2008 18:33

    I figured it out the moment I saw the picture. NO ONE can do it like you....

    Another thought for everyone on the board:

    I can't recall which book, ChD or HoD, where either Teg or Duncan says to either Taraza or Odrade, "You bred for power."

    Were they referring to the BG collectively? Or, the BG specifically; an individual, most probably Odrade. It's a double meaning statement and if I know 'ol Frankie, he meant it as a final statement regarding the purposeful intentions of the "latter-day BG.."

    I believe it was Duncan who says it to Odrade in reference to Murbella after the hostile takeover
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    Postby SandChigger » 16 Dec 2008 18:47

    Chapterhouse, almost at the end. Looks like an internal dialogue between Odrade and Murbella. (The copy of the file I have doesn't include italicization and I don't have copy of the book here, so it's a bit hard to follow. Giving it a shot...)

    You foolish woman! Did you fail the Agony?

    You know I didn't!

    Stop stumbling over the obvious.

    Oh, you bitch!

    I prefer witch. Either is preferable to whore.

    The only difference between Bene Gesserit and Honored Matre is the marketplace. You married our Sisterhood.

    Our Sisterhood?

    You bred for power! How is that different from . . .

    Don't twist it, Murbella! Keep your eyes on survival.

    Don't tell me you had no power.

    Temporary authority over people intent on survival.

    Survival again!

    In a Sisterhood that promotes the survival of others. Like the married woman who bears children.

    So it comes down to procreation.

    That's a decision you make for yourself: family and what binds it. What tickles life and happiness?

    Looks like Murbella said it.
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    Postby Wonder » 16 Dec 2008 18:48

    "No need for names," as Odrade says to her father.

    We know who we are.

    I'll tell you this, I have been laughing out loud all day long thanks to you.

    Someone mentioned the scene where Duncan calls Bell a hypocrite. I've read that book about twenty times and remember understanding that accusation only once. I've lost the thread of that exchange and can't get it back.

    What does he mean? How is Bell a hypocrite?
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    Postby Wonder » 16 Dec 2008 18:54

    Yes, that is exactly the one!!!! I love the witch/bitch/whore thang.

    That particular exchange shows that Odrade really did make the ultimate sacrifice knowing the weaknesses in Murbella. She did her best and she knew what the possibilities were. She was a gambler with a sure hand.

    But, the lesson for Murbella was to take it and run and to learn from the mistakes of her predecessors; not to trap them in a tunnel ever again. I guess...
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    Postby Phaedrus » 17 Feb 2009 05:42

    Wonder wrote:Yes, that is exactly the one!!!! I love the witch/bitch/whore thang.

    That particular exchange shows that Odrade really did make the ultimate sacrifice knowing the weaknesses in Murbella. She did her best and she knew what the possibilities were. She was a gambler with a sure hand.

    But, the lesson for Murbella was to take it and run and to learn from the mistakes of her predecessors; not to trap them in a tunnel ever again. I guess...


    Uhm...no. It wasn't a gamble at all. Murbella went through the Agony.

    After that, she was BG, because she could no longer be anything else. Notice how the OM of Odrade reigns her in? The Agony. Bene Gesserit. They always come back.
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    Postby Phaedrus » 17 Feb 2009 05:49

    As to the question this topic poses:

    The Bene Gesserit see themselves as the insurers of "human" interests in politics.

    I think they believed the Kwisatz Haderach, through his access to the male past, would unlock for them new insight into what's best for "humanity."

    Of course, they were wrong about many things, including their definition of human and their understanding of their Kwisatz Haderach.

    I think that no matter what, the KH would have rebelled the way that Paul and Leto did. The BG were right, the KH had a greater insight through his access to both masculine and feminine avenues of the past: he saw where the BG were wrong, and sought to correct that.

    However, had it not been Paul/Leto, they might have just killed him.
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    Postby mrpsbrk » 17 Feb 2009 13:04

    Phaedrus wrote:As to the question this topic poses:

    The Bene Gesserit see themselves as the insurers of "human" interests in politics.

    I think they believed the Kwisatz Haderach, through his access to the male past, would unlock for them new insight into what's best for "humanity."


    I agree. I think besides a solely political bid for power, the BG also had a religious interest in the KH. I think it would be their messiah too. Obviously they would try and pretend to be dealing with him in his own level, but they would also expect him to clear all their doubts.

    Much in the same way that Stillgar did abstain from making his own decisions after he started seeing Paul as a messiah.

    That said, i doubt their "plan" with the KH was something too straightforward, something in only one level, i think it is more likely that they would have a "wheels within wheels" sort of idea.

    From the political perspective, i think we can take it for sure that the plan was for the son of Feyd-Rauta and the female Paul to marry (Romeo+Juliet style) and bred a husband for Urinal (err... Irulan).

    But i also think they would do their best to make it NOT seem like BG-time, i believe they would try to remain on the background.

    Also, obviously they did want all of that by a controlled path, not some unruly war.
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    BG, KH, and Murbella

    Postby Wonder » 17 Feb 2009 21:39

    Yes, after the Agony there weren't any other options, normally. But, we must consider that Murbella had already been 'conditioned' by HM. This added a new dimension and possibly even an obstacle and all of us recognize the doubts that Odrade had. Herbert spends a lot to time focusing on those doubts. Would Murbella perform according to BG standards and goals even after the Agony? That was the real threat to their existence and the real fear felt by most of the RM still living.

    After the Agony and during the period when she tries to make sense of it all, the training of the two schools, there is still a residue of HM influencing her thoughts and her actions. When she becomes both Mother Superior and GHM, the hybrid reference comes fully into existence. She wasn't only BG, she was both, and she looked for a balance that would, yes, ensure that the BG plan would endure, only now with HM immersed in BG talents, or vice-versa. It's the same either way, but we can't totally dismiss either one.

    In other words, she wasn't only BG. I believe that was Herbert's message. That we can't follow only one path, that we must recognize the tangents and choose the best direction for our survival.

    Murbella says it perfectly when she and Odrade talk after her workout during pregnancy. She says something about a banquet and choosing this and choosing that. Choosing those things that appealed to her and satisfied her own hungers. Odrade put a lot of trust in BG conditioning and in the Agony, but still it was a gamble and up until then, the BG ALWAYS chose a sure path as referenced by Bellonda. Odrade hoped for a more flexible Sisterhood and one that would be receptive to adaptation, even though they knew intimately the necessity to adapt but had not. Hard thing for them after 3500 years of oppression, not able to do anything new.

    What think you?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Feb 2009 23:40

    I think you underestimate the Agony, once all those OM come flooding in one can't but help be BG. That's why they said they will one day all be BG with faster reflexes and not visa versa.
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    Postby moreh_yeladim » 18 Feb 2009 20:20

    Freakzilla wrote:I think you underestimate the Agony, once all those OM come flooding in one can't but help be BG. That's why they said they will one day all be BG with faster reflexes and not visa versa.

    Why couldn't they help but be Bene Gesserit? The Other Memories of an Honored Matre certainly don't contain Bene Gesserit memories for many generations back.
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    Postby SandChigger » 18 Feb 2009 20:43

    But they would be there in the ancestral OM of some HMs, considering their source. (Scattered Fishspeakers and Bene Gesserit. The odd librarian slut here and there. You know ... bureaucrats gone bad. ;) )
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    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 20:57

    moreh_yeladim wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think you underestimate the Agony, once all those OM come flooding in one can't but help be BG. That's why they said they will one day all be BG with faster reflexes and not visa versa.

    Why couldn't they help but be Bene Gesserit? The Other Memories of an Honored Matre certainly don't contain Bene Gesserit memories for many generations back.


    Because Other Memory is what makes one a Reverend Mother, not all the training. That's just preperation for OM. OM is what makes them skillfull observers of minutea and manipulators of systems. The HMs would be there but not in a continuum like the RMs.
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    Agony

    Postby Wonder » 18 Feb 2009 21:58

    Oh, the agony of it all....

    No, we can't ignore the Agony. However, remember that Murbella easily slips back into HM mode when she became Supreme Commander of both groups. So, yes, the Agony was certainly a catalyst, as well as Murbella herself, but she was still the HM "slut" or a more enlightened slut.

    Dama got angry when Lucilla asked about their libraries. These woman had no time to read, they only had time to do the wild thang.

    I've often wondered why the HM didn't practice selective breeding. Herbert only talks about them enslaving males. Murbella says that they did a "sweep" just to get her. Were all of them handpicked? I don't recall any of them being pregnant and producing more whores.

    SandChigger wrote:But they would be there in the ancestral OM of some HMs, considering their source. (Scattered Fishspeakers and Bene Gesserit. The odd librarian slut here and there. You know ... bureaucrats gone bad. ;) )



    hee, hee, heeeeeee! Yeah, they were certainly single-minded. Reminds me of the male species. We're ALWAYS distracted.




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    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Feb 2009 22:04

    I agree that the HMs are still who they are, but that will only last a generation or two.

    The Honored Matred don't have a breeding program because they don't think that far ahead.
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    Re: The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

    Postby Laphtiya » 09 Oct 2009 13:20

    When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
    of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
    and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne.
    He blamed
    the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting
    even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to
    comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation
    to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and
    asked if I thought him a weakling. I saw then that he had been aroused to this
    passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
    royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
    father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
    ancestry.
    -"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan

    Posted from earilier, now there is no evidence to suggest that there was an Empress on the Imperial Throne, so one then has to conclude that they were planning to wed the Kwisatz Haderach to one of Saddam's daughters and be placed on the Throne. Thus through OM the Male Bene Gesserit would have access to all the genetic memories from all of the previous Emperors. And being a Bene Gesserit they would have direct control over the Imperium while still operating in the background as a whole. Once their KH was on the throne his decendants would rule the Imperium each one being a KH themselves leaving the BG to manipulate and shape the Imperium breeding human stock while removing the animal stock.

    Just my thoughts.
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    Re: The Bene Gesserit Plan Before Muad'Dib

    Postby JasonJD48 » 04 Feb 2015 22:40

    Wonder wrote:Oh, the agony of it all....

    No, we can't ignore the Agony. However, remember that Murbella easily slips back into HM mode when she became Supreme Commander of both groups. So, yes, the Agony was certainly a catalyst, as well as Murbella herself, but she was still the HM "slut" or a more enlightened slut.


    To me, Murbella slipping back to HM mode was an act in order to appear to the HMs like she was still an HM and that the union would favor the HM side. She was 100% Reverend Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit at that point, a worthy successor to Odrade and with Odrade's persona guiding her. She was executing Odrade's plan.

    Laphtiya wrote:When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
    of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
    and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne.
    He blamed
    the Guild and the evil old Baron. He blamed everyone in sight, not excepting
    even me, for he said I was a witch like all the others. And when I sought to
    comfort him, saying it was done according to an older law of self-preservation
    to which even the most ancient rulers gave allegiance, he sneered at me and
    asked if I thought him a weakling. I saw then that he had been aroused to this
    passion not by concern over the dead Duke but by what that death implied for all
    royalty. As I look back on it, I think there may have been some prescience in my
    father, too, for it is certain that his line and Muad'Dib's shared common
    ancestry.
    -"In My Father's House," by the Princess Irulan

    Posted from earilier, now there is no evidence to suggest that there was an Empress on the Imperial Throne, so one then has to conclude that they were planning to wed the Kwisatz Haderach to one of Saddam's daughters and be placed on the Throne. Thus through OM the Male Bene Gesserit would have access to all the genetic memories from all of the previous Emperors. And being a Bene Gesserit they would have direct control over the Imperium while still operating in the background as a whole. Once their KH was on the throne his decendants would rule the Imperium each one being a KH themselves leaving the BG to manipulate and shape the Imperium breeding human stock while removing the animal stock.

    Just my thoughts.


    I agree, that was exactly the plan, I would also assume they would have spent a lot of time dissecting his memories of the male line, but I definitely always thought that 'Paulette' and Feyd's son would be wed to one of the Corrino daughters and take the throne. Hence why Shaddam was denied sons and why there was an agreement to put a BG on the throne when succession is male. But other than enforce the status quo but with Bene Gesserit favor, I don't see any other grand design for the Imperium which is why Leto II was so frustrated with them.
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