The Bene Gesserit in public opinion

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halcyo
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Postby halcyo » 21 Feb 2008 17:17

Crysknife wrote:The BG used an overdose of Spice. The WoL was something only the Fremen used to that point.


This is the only citation I can come up with right now, which doesn't really prove much of any of our ideas...

pg. 233 of the PDF version:


And she knew with a generalized awareness that she had become, in truth, precisely what was meant by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. The poison drug had transformed her.
This wasn't exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew. The end result was the same.


So I guess Jessica wouldn't really know EXACTLY what the BG use, because she never goes through THEIR version of the ritual....

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Postby Crysknife » 21 Feb 2008 18:18

The question is: What are the Bene Gesserit using for the Agony during Leto II's reign? Just alot more 'lower grade' spice than normal? For that matter, what are the BG using in the beginning of the series if they don't use Water of Life/Spice Essence? A massive dose of just spice (as in the lowest grade product) wouldn't really be a painful poison, it would just make you trippy as shit, right?


They are overdosing on regular spice during Leto's reign. From DM:

"My son!" Paul whispered, too low for any to hear. "You're . . . aware."
"Yes, father. Look!"
Paul sagged against the wall in a spasm of dizziness. He felt that he'd been
upended and drained. His own life whipped past him. He saw his father. He was
his father. And the grandfather, and the grandfathers before that. His awareness
tumbled through a mind-shattering corridor of his whole male line.
"How?" he asked silently.
Faint word-shapings appeared, faded and were gone, as though the strain was
too great. Paul wiped saliva from the corner of his mouth. He remembered the
awakening of Alia in the Lady Jessica's womb. But there had been no Water of
Life, no
overdose of melange this time . . .

And if they could use it during Leto's reign, they could use it before. Remember they already had drugs that could "awaken the voices within", so regular spice would have worked just fine. I think an important thing to point out is that not every person in the empire could afford to overdose on so much spice. It took a faction like the BG just to buy the stuff in such quantities.....therefore, they held the monopoly on the Agony. During Leto's reign, they could only have so many RMs because he only allowed them so much regular spice.....all this can be seen during Leto's meeting with Luyseyal and Anteac.
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Postby Mandy » 21 Feb 2008 18:45

This wasn't exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew. The end result was the same.


I know this is the text in the book, but it doesn't really make sense to me that Jessica wouldn't know, at this point, exactly how the Bene Gesserit did it in the school. She has access to the Reverend Mothers in her OM and unless she just wasn't yet aware that she could retrieve that info, there's really no reason she wouldn't have the whole process right there in her mind.

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Postby SandChigger » 21 Feb 2008 19:28

Spice and Water of Life are two different but related things, with different origins. If you dilute a lot of spice in water you don't get Water of Life or spice essence, just a concentrated spice liquid. Poison to anyone but a RM.

The incident with Leto and Anteac and Luyseyal shows that the BG still had access to some spice essence...because they bring a small vial of it with them, possibly in hopes of an assassination attempt; he detects and confiscates it.

Mandy, maybe I'm wrong, but aren't the Reverend Mothers in Jessica's new OM all Fremen "wild" RMs? The only way BG OM (with knowledge of how the BG did the thing) could be there would be if one of the MP RMs had shared in the same way with one of the Fremen WRMs. Unless of course you buy into the bit about Mohiam being Jessica's mother? ;)
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Postby Mandy » 21 Feb 2008 20:20

You don't think Jessica had any BG's in her female ancestry? I was under the impression that she was a product of the BG's breeding program so it would make sense if there were a BG or two in her OM. Plus the Fremen had been visited by the Missionaria Protectiva.. so I wouldn't be surprised if the Fremen Reverend Mother tradition came straight from the Bene Gesserit.

I haven't read any of the nuDune so me buying the bit about RM Mohiam being her mother is out of the question. Her mother was named Tanidia Nerus in the originals. Honestly, I don't think of the new stuff as anything more than really bad fanfiction :wink:

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Postby Crysknife » 21 Feb 2008 20:58

The incident with Leto and Anteac and Luyseyal shows that the BG still had access to some spice essence...because they bring a small vial of it with them, possibly in hopes of an assassination attempt; he detects and confiscates it.


Leto would know if the BG were producing more RMs than the spice he gave them would allow. My guess is they had that vile of Essence for thousands of years, only bringing it out in a last ditch effort to thwart the God Emperor. The BG really were a shadow of their former glory during the later years of Leto's reign.

Spice Essence is just another name for WoL. If there are no worms, there is no essence, only that which had been stockpiled.

The problem with Jessica is that she still might be Mohiam's daughter, but Mohiam might have given birth to her before the Agony, therefore she still wouldn't have memories of the BG Agony ritual, or if her mother(not Mohiam), or anyone down her female line, had never been an RM before she had given birth.

I'm sure the ritual changed over time as well.
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Postby SandChigger » 21 Feb 2008 22:09

Mandy, of course you're right about Jessica being a product of the BG breeding program ("KH or Bust!" ;) ), I'm just not sure that their management of gene lines always entailed them getting a piece into the action.

(That didn't come out right, did it? :shock: )
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Postby inhuien » 22 Feb 2008 05:31

I think it's a good bet the Jessica's mother was a full RM, my reasoning for this? Would the Bene Gesserit entrust a lowly acolyte with the mission to become impregnated by the Baron H?
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Postby Crysknife » 22 Feb 2008 10:51

inhuien wrote:I think it's a good bet the Jessica's mother was a full RM, my reasoning for this? Would the Bene Gesserit entrust a lowly acolyte with the mission to become impregnated by the Baron H?


Yes, they trusted one to become pregnant by Feyd. Jessica going against orders was very rare, even for an acolyte.
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Postby halcyo » 22 Feb 2008 11:02

Mandy wrote:Her mother was named Tanidia Nerus in the originals.


Whoa! Where do we learn THAT!? I certainly don't remember that little bit of info....enlighten me....

This is all getting pretty complicated!

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Postby Tyrant » 22 Feb 2008 12:05

halcyo wrote:
Mandy wrote:Her mother was named Tanidia Nerus in the originals.


Whoa! Where do we learn THAT!? I certainly don't remember that little bit of info....enlighten me....

This is all getting pretty complicated!

halcyo


its in children of dune...in the chapter where leto is talking to jessica in sietch tabr...great great chapter...have a little dose of Tanidia Nerus KJA!!!
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Postby Mandy » 22 Feb 2008 13:57

I just find it unlikely that there wasn't at least one or two RMs in Jessica's ancestry somewhere. The BG were breeding for the KH, so I'd think they'd have some of the best blood right there amongst themselves. Didn't Leto II have RMs in his memory that didn't come from his Fremen side? I suppose the original Duke Leto could have had some RMs in his ancestry too.

All this discussion is making me itch to read the books again.

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Postby valys » 22 Feb 2008 14:29

Crysknife wrote:
inhuien wrote:I think it's a good bet the Jessica's mother was a full RM, my reasoning for this? Would the Bene Gesserit entrust a lowly acolyte with the mission to become impregnated by the Baron H?


Yes, they trusted one to become pregnant by Feyd. Jessica going against orders was very rare, even for an acolyte.


Wasn't Margot Fenring assigned to "do the wild thing" with Feyd? I don't think she was just an acolyte.

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Postby halcyo » 22 Feb 2008 15:34

Mandy wrote:The BG were breeding for the KH, so I'd think they'd have some of the best blood right there amongst themselves.


Or, staying with their 'power behind the throne' mentality in the early novels, perhaps they would have chosen to keep that choice genetic material outside the Sisterhood, lest it were to discover the plans that had been designed for it. It would actually be easier for the BG to control the fates of those outside the Sisterhood than those who were well trained from within to recognize such schemes!

All this discussion is making me itch to read the books again.


Yea, me too! :D

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Postby Mandy » 22 Feb 2008 16:40

Oh hell... I was just reading the wikipedia article about the Bene Gesserit and came to the part about the "Kwisatz Mother" :roll: Is there nothing those two idiots didn't cheapen? - sorry this is probably not the right thread, I was trying to find info about Jessica's lineage. I like to follow the online trail, sometimes you can find interesting things.

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Postby Crysknife » 22 Feb 2008 17:09

valys wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
inhuien wrote:I think it's a good bet the Jessica's mother was a full RM, my reasoning for this? Would the Bene Gesserit entrust a lowly acolyte with the mission to become impregnated by the Baron H?


Yes, they trusted one to become pregnant by Feyd. Jessica going against orders was very rare, even for an acolyte.


Wasn't Margot Fenring assigned to "do the wild thing" with Feyd? I don't think she was just an acolyte.


She was a servant of the BG Sisterhood.....a subordinate like Jessica. In other words, a student or acolyte. She is not an RM.
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Postby Fantômas » 22 Feb 2008 17:38

Mandy wrote:Oh hell... I was just reading the wikipedia article about the Bene Gesserit and came to the part about the "Kwisatz Mother" :roll: Is there nothing those two idiots didn't cheapen? - sorry this is probably not the right thread, I was trying to find info about Jessica's lineage. I like to follow the online trail, sometimes you can find interesting things.


Sure.

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Postby SandChigger » 22 Feb 2008 22:44

Mandy wrote:Oh hell... I was just reading the wikipedia article about the Bene Gesserit and came to the part about the "Kwisatz Mother" :roll: Is there nothing those two idiots didn't cheapen? - sorry this is probably not the right thread, I was trying to find info about Jessica's lineage. I like to follow the online trail, sometimes you can find interesting things.

I'm glad you mentioned that you haven't read the new books; there're so many WONDERFUL things you're missing! :roll:

Like this lovely little tidbit in House Atrocious where the phrase Kwisatz Mother first appears (it shows its simpering face 43 times in the House books, btw; never ONCE in Frank's):

But Anirul would be accused of distraction and foolish delay if she did not get to the meeting. Some said she was far too young to be the Kwisatz Mother, but Other Memory had revealed more to her than to any other Sister. She comprehended the precious, millennia-old genetic quest for the Kwisatz Haderach better than the other Reverend Mothers because the past lives had revealed everything to her, while keeping the details hidden from most Bene Gesserit.

Even from their first book they were showing their by-now-all-too-familiar pattern of making the characters and events they write of BIGGER and BETTER than any of Frank's. That last bit is just so much bullshit it's dumbfounding.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Rakis » 22 Feb 2008 23:30

Mandy wrote:Oh hell... I was just reading the wikipedia article about the Bene Gesserit and came to the part about the "Kwisatz Mother" :roll: Is there nothing those two idiots didn't cheapen? - sorry this is probably not the right thread, I was trying to find info about Jessica's lineage. I like to follow the online trail, sometimes you can find interesting things.



Not the right thread, but the right forum... :lol: :lol:
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Postby SandChigger » 23 Feb 2008 00:06

Well, it's OK, though, no? ;)

Presumably the BG breeders involved in the project would have had some term for referring to the woman would would potentially bear the KH ("potentially", because it would always be a luck of the draw thing, no?), but I seriously doubt, with the general BG attitude towards religion, it would have taken on some sort of Madonna nuance. Not real Dune.

(Again a bit "off-forum" but: lately I've moved more towards the view that K&B have intentionally changed things to suit their own dimwitted plans for the Duniverse, but with such stuff from the early books, I have to wonder if it wasn't a case of them simply not getting it.)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Feb 2008 07:15

SandChigger wrote:Well, it's OK, though, no? ;)

Presumably the BG breeders involved in the project would have had some term for referring to the woman would would potentially bear the KH ("potentially", because it would always be a luck of the draw thing, no?), but I seriously doubt, with the general BG attitude towards religion, it would have taken on some sort of Madonna nuance. Not real Dune.

(Again a bit "off-forum" but: lately I've moved more towards the view that K&B have intentionally changed things to suit their own dimwitted plans for the Duniverse, but with such stuff from the early books, I have to wonder if it wasn't a case of them simply not getting it.)


It's a terrible name because it doesn't make any sense. But I could see how the BG would have a name for it, something that mentat breeding mothers would have come up with and put a catholic spin on.

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Postby inhuien » 23 Feb 2008 08:53

Given the Bene Gesserit’s secretive nature their hardly going to around addressing someone as the “Kwisatz Mother”, even within their own sisterhood, That would only draw the question ”whats a Kwisatz ,Mother?”

The BG on occasion may slip up but their not stupid.
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Postby loremaster » 23 Feb 2008 09:19

The RM, particularly in archives tend to give certain nicknames to things, i cant remember what but there is one in chapterhouse. Anyway.

I think its important that the BG schools in D, DM, CoD era were the best there are. I mean, they always have been is the impression i get. For an education in the political arena anyway. Certain specialised school (SM, Mentats guild etc) obviously surpassed them for particular talents.

I think there possibly existed the kind of relationship many people have with science and technology today... how many times do you hear older people admitting to a distrust of science, meddling in things its perhaps not supposed to. Or technology making us lazy. etc

Yet these people are still quick to send their offspring to university to learn all this alleged "forbidden knowledge" in order to be successful.

This was probably compounded by the appearance of "unnatural" abilities by RM.

Certainly there was a native distrust among the general populace. It reminds me very much of the Tleilaxu puplic opinion - "Filthy little tleilaxu... disgusting" - yet many were too quick to obtain mentats, tleilaxu eyes, gholas etc.

FWIW, I have been thinking it could be the death-crisis induced by certain drugs or traumas which could unlock OM. It certainly seems to be similar to Ghola memory in many respects. I always wonder about other crises which might unlock OM in times of stress.
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Postby halcyo » 23 Feb 2008 10:50

SandChigger wrote:Like this lovely little tidbit in House Atrocious where the phrase Kwisatz Mother first appears (it shows its simpering face 43 times in the House books, btw; never ONCE in Frank's):

But Anirul would be accused of distraction and foolish delay if she did not get to the meeting. Some said she was far too young to be the Kwisatz Mother, but Other Memory had revealed more to her than to any other Sister. She comprehended the precious, millennia-old genetic quest for the Kwisatz Haderach better than the other Reverend Mothers because the past lives had revealed everything to her, while keeping the details hidden from most Bene Gesserit.

Even from their first book they were showing their by-now-all-too-familiar pattern of making the characters and events they write of BIGGER and BETTER than any of Frank's. That last bit is just so much bullshit it's dumbfounding.


Yea, every time I hear a quote from one of these books, I am in shock at how ridiculous they are. Every damn character is some mindblowing super-powered freak! Everyone seems to constantly be having epiphanies, and discovering new powers. It's like the god damn X-men or something.

Many amateur writers (especially in the 'sci-fi' genre) seem to write everyone and everything as some superlative entity, thinking that this will make the work more 'exciting'. Whatever happened to subtlety!? I guess it waved goodbye ever since The Matrix or something...

STAR WARS/MATRIX ASS DRIVEL! (But at least Star Wars was intended to be slightly campy and obvious!)

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Postby Omphalos » 23 Feb 2008 12:18

Space Opera/Golden Age clap-trap. FH is spinning in his grave, cursing those two for everything that he and John Campbell worked to achieve.


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