Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Just something I was thinking about recently. How far back does Other Memory go? Its established it goes pretty far back but what I wondered was is it restricted to human memories? Do Bene Gesserit have Neanderthal or primate ancestor memories? If so, maybe its this memory that stretches across evolution that gives the Bene Gesserit their insight into human evolution and development?

It seems there are limitations to OM, for example RM cannot find the origin of Honoured Matres(and the fact they cannot look on the masculine side of course)
Also from what I gathered through my readings of Dune, the further you delve into the past of Other Memory(in depther if I may say so) the greater the risk of getting invaded by some past persona(and become Abomination)
So I reckon it would take a very strong RM to look that far back without being lost.

I guess if you look up all references to OM by RMs you'll know how far they go.
(offhand I remember Odrade and Van Gogh, but there must go a bit further than that )

For the record, Neanderthal is not necessarily a human ancestor, they may have been a completely seperate thing. People commonly get them confused with early hominids that were certainly our ancestors, but lived in Africa (Neanderthals lived in Europe). The debate rages as to whether they were wiped out by humans (they and early humans did exist at the same time) or whether they were bred into the human genepool.

As for OM, I see no reason to restrict it to humans, it should go back allllllll the way to the earliest thinking ancestor. That said, I'm sure the memories from before humans would be so garbled as to be gibberish.

lotek wrote:It seems there are limitations to OM, for example RM cannot find the origin of Honoured Matres(and the fact they cannot look on the masculine side of course)
Also from what I gathered through my readings of Dune, the further you delve into the past of Other Memory(in depther if I may say so) the greater the risk of getting invaded by some past persona(and become Abomination)
So I reckon it would take a very strong RM to look that far back without being lost.

I guess if you look up all references to OM by RMs you'll know how far they go.
(offhand I remember Odrade and Van Gogh, but there must go a bit further than that )

Leto II's alliance with Harum suggests OM goes back at least to Ancient times. Also during one of his monologues he damnes the Romans after which they LOL him.

lotek wrote:It seems there are limitations to OM, for example RM cannot find the origin of Honoured Matres(and the fact they cannot look on the masculine side of course).

You're talking about the RM that used to be HM correct? I thought that was more of a "blocked memorie" situation, like when someone buries memories of abuse.

yeah but I consider Leto II to be an exception to the rule, his mastery of OM is way beyond that of the BG RMs...
I have in the back of my mind something from GEoD where Leto would hint at going quite far down the chain, further than humans but I might be mistaken...

To be more precise I think there is no limitations as to how far OM goes(why would there be?), but there are limitations as to how far one can look.
As long there is a genetic link between them of course.

@AToE: yes that's who I was referring to,but the reason to the blocage is irrelevant to the question imo, as we discuss the possibity of limitations not necessarily why they occur.

True, but the OP seemed to be more directed at whether there was a cutoff point in history for OM, so I thought I'd point out the difference just for clarity's sake.

fair enough, it's best to get the question right before answering, it's not like we dn't have a history of flying off topic at the first occasion lol

So if it is "how far does it go?" I'd say as far as the first hint of sentient life.
If it is how far can one go? Then I'd say it depends on who's doing the looking.

Sentient being a term of much contention of course... but yes I would guess something like that as well would make sense.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Sentient being a term of much contention of course... but yes I would guess something like that as well would make sense.

yeah I was hoping not to start an argument on what IS sentient, so thank for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
(I guess it would be more precise to say as soon as the brain was capable of retaining memories then)

lotek wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Sentient being a term of much contention of course... but yes I would guess something like that as well would make sense.

yeah I was hoping not to start an argument on what IS sentient, so thank for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
(I guess it would be more precise to say as soon as the brain was capable of retaining memories then)

Well, not to start a debate, but sentiency is not required for memories. I've never heard dogs (for example)called sentient, but they can memorize tonnes of information.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

lotek wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Sentient being a term of much contention of course... but yes I would guess something like that as well would make sense.

yeah I was hoping not to start an argument on what IS sentient, so thank for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
(I guess it would be more precise to say as soon as the brain was capable of retaining memories then)

Well, not to start a debate, but sentiency is not required for memories. I've never heard dogs (for example)called sentient, but they can memorize tonnes of information.

then I guess OM should be able to go back as far as any creature genetically related to humans and capable of retaining memories
But that'd be one hell of a ride!!

That reminds me that movie whose title I can't remember for the life of me(it's from the 70s I think, and I probably was around 8 when I saw it on tv)
It describes a man who uses some drug(the 70s baby!)that allows him to go down his genetic past. And at some point he starts going too far and transforms into a caveman... the rest of the plot is a bit of a blur but I am sure someone will know what I am talking about

In fact the more I think of it the more similarities I find between OM/spice and this genetic memory/drug, so now I must remember the title lest I end this day in frustration at my own crappy memory!

Sentient:

1, capable of responding emotionally rather than intellectually. 2, capable of feeling and perception.

Animals are sentient because they are self aware and have emotions. Insects are not because their brains function on a purely reactionary basis.

Kensai wrote:Sentient:

1, capable of responding emotionally rather than intellectually. 2, capable of feeling and perception.

Animals are sentient because they are self aware and have emotions. Insects are not because their brains function on a purely reactionary basis.

Self aware is a complex topic, and not all animals are considered to be self aware. It was a big deal when it was proven than some (all I believe actually) apes are in fact self aware (pass mirror tests and such).

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Kensai wrote:Sentient:

1, capable of responding emotionally rather than intellectually. 2, capable of feeling and perception.

Animals are sentient because they are self aware and have emotions. Insects are not because their brains function on a purely reactionary basis.

Self aware is a complex topic, and not all animals are considered to be self aware. It was a big deal when it was proven than some (all I believe actually) apes are in fact self aware (pass mirror tests and such).

I know what you mean and your right, but cats and dogs are aware of themselvs. They don't just function out of self preservation, they seak pleasure, they know they are induviduals, they respond to names.

Just like there are levels of inteligence there are levels of self awareness.

Agreed, it's a spectrum not a distinct yes or no thing.

lotek wrote:That reminds me that movie whose title I can't remember for the life of me(it's from the 70s I think, and I probably was around 8 when I saw it on tv)
It describes a man who uses some drug(the 70s baby!)that allows him to go down his genetic past. And at some point he starts going too far and transforms into a caveman... the rest of the plot is a bit of a blur but I am sure someone will know what I am talking about

Altered States http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080360/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Researcher William Hurt gets high, eats a lizard's gizzard, watches his girlfriend turn to stone and erode away in a sandstorm.

TOO kewl.

SandChigger wrote:

lotek wrote:That reminds me that movie whose title I can't remember for the life of me(it's from the 70s I think, and I probably was around 8 when I saw it on tv)
It describes a man who uses some drug(the 70s baby!)that allows him to go down his genetic past. And at some point he starts going too far and transforms into a caveman... the rest of the plot is a bit of a blur but I am sure someone will know what I am talking about

Altered States http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080360/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Researcher William Hurt gets high, eats a lizard's gizzard, watches his girlfriend turn to stone and erode away in a sandstorm.

TOO kewl.

ow yeees!
Nice one and thanks, really! I have to watch that again...

I remember that OM goes back to the original cell. Have a read:

Dune wrote:Black is a blind remembering, she thought. You listen for pack sounds, for
the cries of those who hunted your ancestors in a past so ancient only your most
primitive cells remember. The ears see. The nostrils see.

Not totally convincing though.

This one, however, is (I think):

Children Of Dune wrote:This was Muad'Dib's achievement: He saw the subliminal reservoir of each
individual as an unconscious bank of memories going back to the primal cell of
our common genesis.

SadisticCynic wrote:I remember that OM goes back to the original cell. Have a read:

Dune wrote:Black is a blind remembering, she thought. You listen for pack sounds, for
the cries of those who hunted your ancestors in a past so ancient only your most
primitive cells remember. The ears see. The nostrils see.

Not totally convincing though.

This one, however, is (I think):

Children Of Dune wrote:This was Muad'Dib's achievement: He saw the subliminal reservoir of each
individual as an unconscious bank of memories going back to the primal cell of
our common genesis.

yup thanks, I knew there was at least some hinting that OM could stretch that far back
Good search/find!
Now the funny part would be how the memory of a cell can be translated for a human consciousness to actually mean anything? (maybe that's what it feels like to be in the mind of Keith when he "writes"?)

lotek wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:I remember that OM goes back to the original cell. Have a read:

Dune wrote:Black is a blind remembering, she thought. You listen for pack sounds, for
the cries of those who hunted your ancestors in a past so ancient only your most
primitive cells remember. The ears see. The nostrils see.

Not totally convincing though.

This one, however, is (I think):

Children Of Dune wrote:This was Muad'Dib's achievement: He saw the subliminal reservoir of each
individual as an unconscious bank of memories going back to the primal cell of
our common genesis.

yup thanks, I knew there was at least some hinting that OM could stretch that far back
Good search/find!
Now the funny part would be how the memory of a cell can be translated for a human consciousness to actually mean anything? (maybe that's what it feels like to be in the mind of Keith when he "writes"?)

Yeah, that's the real trick isn't it? I'd say that the experiences of the cell (& etc) would probably be interpreted as subconscious urges of some description, e.g. jihad-style mixing of genes.