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    The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

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    The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby tenfingersofdoom » 15 Jun 2010 00:12

    I got the feeling from Chapterhouse that the sisterhood and all people of the jewish faith had a large unspoken agreement. That there was more than just the one small group of jews agreeing to shelter rebecca and deliver her and the 7 million sisters residing in her brain. Did they have a much larger role in upcoming novels than the rabbi being a face dancer? Was their purpose something a bit more widespread throughout history, other than trying to remain hidden out in the open? Because I remember the passage in Chapterhouse of the jewish/sisterhood pact as being somewhat of a revelation, or was I just caught up in franks great writing? Or is it just the fact that after 20,000 years one old earth religion seems to remain intact?
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 15 Jun 2010 01:54

    "...the rabbi being a face dancer.." what crack brained idiot thought of that?

    Oh, wait....

    Myself, I rather disliked the inclusion of Secret Israel in Chapterhouse - it seemed, forgive me Frank, a bit far fetched.

    Perhaps he had something a bit more meaningful intended, I don't know.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby A Little Galach » 15 Jun 2010 08:33

    There was an unspoken agreement between BG and Jews, if I remember correctly the Jews owed the BG bigtime for helping them.

    There was more than one Jewish community.

    Was their purpose something a bit more widespread throughout history, other than trying to remain hidden out in the open?
    If you're trying to ask if there was a large, unseen and powerful Jewish conspiracy to control the Empire, CHOAM and the media I'm going to say no. But thanks for the giggle.

    Seriously, I think they just tried to hide out and be Jewish.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby MrFlibble » 15 Jun 2010 09:12

    Hm, maybe their inclusion was a kind of a "surprise" plot twist? Lots and lots of things changed during the history of Humanity, but the Jewish communities persisted, and kept their original ways. Maybe Frank's idea was to juxtapose them to other organizations and communities in the universe, showing that some things would not change throughout centuries... One thing I can tell for sure, this was no particular surprise to me, they seemed organic in the storyline. Also, I suppose the Jews could have been a kind of counterparts to the old Fremen in that they conserved their integrity by concealing themselves from the outer world. It's a constant theme in Dune books about people going underground to fight oppression.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby SandRider » 15 Jun 2010 10:52

    :text-yeahthat:

    that's the way I've always read it - that Frank had scattering and diversified the human race
    out into the infinite universe, but wanted to show a small group that had direct (and remembered)
    ties to Old Earth ... so the Jews are the obvious choice, a unique culture that has survived various
    trials and scatterings over varying geographical areas over a long period; as a metaphor, we're already
    familiar with the Jews of our history .... I do agree, tho, a little far-fetched ... but not anymore
    than a viable planet with no surface water and big-ass worms and so forth ...
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Jun 2010 10:59

    I think the Jews were going to become the new Fremen on whatever planet Sheeana and company settled.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby lotek » 15 Jun 2010 16:06

    sometimes the answer(well in Frank's case the beginning of an answer) is right under ou noses :)

    Check this out(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora)

    The Jewish diaspora is the English term used to describe the Galut גלות, or 'exile' that encompassed several forced expulsions of Israelites from what is now the states of Israel, Jordan and parts of Lebanon. The modern Hebrew term of Tefutzot תפוצות, "scattered", was introduced by the American academic Simon Rawidowicz in the 1930s[1] who to some degree argued for the acceptance of the Jewish presence outside of the Land of Israel as a modern reality and an inevitability.


    So it the connection between the Jews and the Duniverse is to be found in there, at least for starters ;)

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    damn you sandrider you old grumpy know it all you ruined my moment of glory :lol: :lol:

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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby A Little Galach » 15 Jun 2010 16:29

    Freakzilla wrote:I think the Jews were going to become the new Fremen on whatever planet Sheeana and company settled.


    Very clever. I like this angle.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby tenfingersofdoom » 15 Jun 2010 17:35

    No covetous-jew conspiracies implied.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby MrFlibble » 16 Jun 2010 11:24

    lotek wrote:sometimes the answer(well in Frank's case the beginning of an answer) is right under ou noses :)

    Check this out(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora)

    The Jewish diaspora is the English term used to describe the Galut גלות, or 'exile' that encompassed several forced expulsions of Israelites from what is now the states of Israel, Jordan and parts of Lebanon. The modern Hebrew term of Tefutzot תפוצות, "scattered", was introduced by the American academic Simon Rawidowicz in the 1930s[1] who to some degree argued for the acceptance of the Jewish presence outside of the Land of Israel as a modern reality and an inevitability.


    So it the connection between the Jews and the Duniverse is to be found in there, at least for starters ;)

    Wow, nice find! :D
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby lotek » 16 Jun 2010 12:19

    yeah but someone went down that road before I did :)


    SandRider wrote:the Jews are the obvious choice, a unique culture that has survived various
    trials and scatterings over varying geographical areas over a long period; as a metaphor, we're already
    familiar with the Jews of our history ....


    I knew that a diaspora was a scattering but I'd never really made the connection ;)
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby bloshka » 16 Jun 2010 16:27

    Clever, clever. I was wondering about the Jews but did not know the Hebrew for "diaspora." My feeling after reading Chapterhouse is that the Jews would have played a key role had there been another novel. At the end, the Jews seemed to be more evolved than anyone else. Whilst they were tending a garden they were chattering about everyone else's naivete, no? Plus didn't they have other lives as well?
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Freakzilla » 16 Jun 2010 17:20

    bloshka wrote:Clever, clever. I was wondering about the Jews but did not know the Hebrew for "diaspora." My feeling after reading Chapterhouse is that the Jews would have played a key role had there been another novel. At the end, the Jews seemed to be more evolved than anyone else. Whilst they were tending a garden they were chattering about everyone else's naivete, no? Plus didn't they have other lives as well?


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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby lotek » 16 Jun 2010 17:51

    Frank was always one for hidden symbolism and messages, so it is a safe bet to think the Jews had a potential role to play, but the beauty of his writing(to me anyway)lies in the fact that it is not necessary.
    For most not too uneducated people(we know what they represent for some...) they are the embodiment of scattering for survival, and their presence gives that extra thing just by that "simple" fact.

    Adding the wild RM card to that is a way of giving them more importance than just making a point...

    I haven't read Chapterhouse in a while so I'd not want to come up with theories based on partial memories though.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby SandChigger » 16 Jun 2010 23:51

    You know, I think you're possibly reading an awful lot into something that may be nothing more than an interesting semantic coincidence.

    We don't have any information on the "Second Jewish Disaspora" that must have taken place in the Duniverse (presumably with everyone else that left Earth and before the planet's destruction), but the previous Terran ones were definitely not something undertaken by the Jews themselves as a strategy for survival. It was forced upon them by those who conquered them like, lastly, the Romans. You could argue, of course, that Leto's Scattering was also forced upon humanity by him, but his was the culmination of social and psychological pressures applied over three and a half millennia, not through actual physical relocation. (He didn't scatter people using the Fish Speakers, for example; they scattered on their own as soon as they were able, after his death and his Empire began to collapse, during the Famine Times.) If you'll permit me to frame it in grammatical terms, Leto's Scattering was intransitive (humanity scattered), while the Jewish Diaspora was the passive of a transitive (the Jews were scattered by others). That the Diaspora ended up preserving the Jewish people and their religion can't be denied (the Babylonians and Romans could have put the population to the sword rather than expelling or selling them into slavery), but phrasing it as some capacity or tactic of the Jews for survival seems a bit of a misrepresentation.

    Before concluding that FH must have known that source and had the modern Hebrew term for the Diaspora in mind when conceiving of his own Duniverse Scattering, I'd like to see some actual evidence. :)
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby lotek » 17 Jun 2010 09:44

    yeah fair enough, I didn't mean it to sound like some ground breaking revelation though.
    My point was that if someone like me made the connection between the ancient word for scattering and the Diaspora, there was a good chance FH would have known about it.

    Of course I don't have any evidence he knew(or not)of it :)

    It's just that they seem kind of out of place in the Duniverse(not judging the potential perenity of the Jewish people)
    Old Terran words and customs have survived through the centuries, but the Jews in Dune always struck me as some kind of anachronism as their faith doesn't look like it has changed over that period of time.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby SandChigger » 17 Jun 2010 10:12

    Yep. That was part of the problem, though: the ancient (or older?) term was Galut "Exile". The modern "Scattered" Tefutsot term only dates from the 1930s, according to the quoted passage. Plenty of time for FH to have encountered it, so it's completely possible that he did. We just need something confirming that he had read Rawidowicz. :)
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Superdog » 17 Jun 2010 15:32

    One of the things we definitely see in Dune is the moral degeneracy that comes with victory. When the Fremen conquer Shaddam, they flip their lids and kill billions of people. Fremen lose their culture, become dug addicts, criminals, corrupt priests, dishonest etc. Things you would never have seen before they achieved their ascendancy.

    The BG skirt with this in Chapterhouse, with turning their women into tanks and cyborging the chauffeur whose name I forget. The Jews represent that sort of old world morality. They are the moral torch bearers in a galaxy where everyone is questionable. I think we would have seen them play an important role in in Dune 7.

    also: The Rabbi becomes extremely distressed when Rebecca shares with a RM, but honestly I liked the character of the Rabbi. I think he's a good person in way over his head put in situations he has no way of coping with.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby D Pope » 17 Jun 2010 15:52

    These are some good points Superdog! Well Done!
    Personally, i'd like to see the fremen treated a little more gently, but I can't fault your point.

    Beyond thinking that the introduction of the jews was a little different, i'd never thought about them, they were just there.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2010 15:56

    Superdog wrote:...cyborging the chauffeur whose name I forget.


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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Mr. Teg » 18 Jun 2010 05:15

    A year or more ago a friend of Bruce put several pictures up for auction on eBay of Frank Herbert.

    I remember one group of pictures was of Frank Herbert posing with a famous Jewish artist/philosopher.
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby A Little Galach » 18 Jun 2010 08:44

    Freakzilla wrote:I think the Jews were going to become the new Fremen on whatever planet Sheeana and company settled.


    Coming soon from Keith Anderson and Brian Herbert, a novel of the Scattering: Sean the Jewish Mechanic of Dune
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby SandChigger » 18 Jun 2010 13:48

    With a companion musical CD (recorded by the Raw Swell Sheiks?) telling a story not included in the book, entitled Metaller on the Roof? :shock:
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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 19 Jun 2010 02:33

    Superdog wrote:The BG skirt with this in Chapterhouse ...


    I read that first bit as a derogatory term.

    "That bit of BG skirt ..."

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    Re: The purpose of the jews in chapterhouse.

    Postby Kensai » 26 Jun 2010 12:34

    Superdog wrote:One of the things we definitely see in Dune is the moral degeneracy that comes with victory. When the Fremen conquer Shaddam, they flip their lids and kill billions of people. Fremen lose their culture, become dug addicts, criminals, corrupt priests, dishonest etc. Things you would never have seen before they achieved their ascendancy.


    Well thats what the Fish Speaker wern't supposed to be, but I think in reality they wouldn't be that exempt from all that (and banning men from the military doesn't solve the problem it just puts it away put of sight.

    Maybe in Dune 7, where Frank Herbert would have revealed the identiy of the Great Enamy that had driven back the Honored Matres back to the Old Empire, the Great Enamy would have been revealed to be a race of Nazi Zombies.
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