Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Did I read correctly in CH that Duncan believed the BG in the scattering were subverted or whatever by Honored Matres, that they were sexually defeated like men are? Is that the leading hypothesis?

Did I also intrepret correctly that Sheeana and the acolyte that succeeds her as commander of the Desert Station were lovers?

If the answers are yes, I have to admit that I think I like the book a teensy bit more.

A Little Galach wrote:Did I read correctly in CH that Duncan believed the BG in the scattering were subverted or whatever by Honored Matres, that they were sexually defeated like men are? Is that the leading hypothesis?

No, they were starved of spice and given the adrenaline drug as substitute, I believe.

Did I also intrepret correctly that Sheeana and the acolyte that succeeds her as commander of the Desert Station were lovers?

No, the acolyte had a lover but it was a man. Sheeana kept busy with the training males.

If the answers are yes, I have to admit that I think I like the book a teensy bit more.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

The HM were FORMED by Scattered Bene Gesserit in extremis. No indication of what the extreme situation was but i think it may have been a lack of spice (hence orange-eyeing substitute) and loss of control of scattered elements leading them to develop sexual enslavement as a method of control (survival of the sisterhood being paramount, of course. At least until they diagnosed the Tyrant's Golden Path. The only thing the Bene Gesserit would not block to survive).

I'm not sure about Sheanna and her desert mistress, but did you miss the recurrent homosexuality in GEoD?

Dang nam it, must learn to read the preview before posting!

Although i think that the HM were a branch of BG that chose to develop into whores, however desperately, as evidenced by the Murbella's "In Extremis" during her spice agony. I dont think they were co-erced into it like Freak suggests - could be wrong though. I dont think it's clear either way.

Freakzilla wrote:

A Little Galach wrote:Did I read correctly in CH that Duncan believed the BG in the scattering were subverted or whatever by Honored Matres, that they were sexually defeated like men are? Is that the leading hypothesis?

No, they were starved of spice and given the adrenaline drug as substitute, I believe.

Did I also intrepret correctly that Sheeana and the acolyte that succeeds her as commander of the Desert Station were lovers?

No, the acolyte had a lover but it was a man. Sheeana kept busy with the training males.

If the answers are yes, I have to admit that I think I like the book a teensy bit more.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

I disagree. Dammit, you are forcing me to do homework and find quotes.

Sheeana says the acolyte's eyes are no longer portals into her soul or some such sensual nonsense. I don't remember Duncan's language but I thought I read that right.

loremaster wrote:I'm not sure about Sheanna and her desert mistress, but did you miss the recurrent homosexuality in GEoD?

Oh no, I caught it. I felt like he was scolding establishment America quite a bit in that respect and several others. I think he consistantly used Duncan and the HM's as subjects to have their flaws pointed out by Leto II and the BG. Sexuality, sexism, liberalism, buracreacy, historians, intolerance, etc. I appreciated it more this time around.

loremaster wrote:Although i think that the HM were a branch of BG that chose to develop into whores, however desperately, as evidenced by the Murbella's "In Extremis" during her spice agony. I dont think they were co-erced into it like Freak suggests - could be wrong though. I dont think it's clear either way.

I think I missunderstood his question. BG that were sent out into The Scattering were believed to have been subverted.

The HM were believed to have been formed from Fish Speakers and BG "in extremis" like mentioned above.

Edit: i was pretty sure i had deleted this...

loremaster wrote:The HM were FORMED by Scattered Bene Gesserit in extremis.

The Honored Matres are pretty plainly said to have formed from Fish Speakers, and not Bene Gesserit at all, at the end of GEoD. (I meant Ch:D, obviously...)

mrpsbrk wrote:

loremaster wrote:The HM were FORMED by Scattered Bene Gesserit in extremis.

The Honored Matres are pretty plainly said to have formed from Fish Speakers, and not Bene Gesserit at all, at the end of GEoD.

There were no HM in GEoD.

(This is fun)

Freakzilla wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:

loremaster wrote:The HM were FORMED by Scattered Bene Gesserit in extremis.

The Honored Matres are pretty plainly said to have formed from Fish Speakers, and not Bene Gesserit at all, at the end of GEoD.

There were no HM in GEoD.

Perhaps, but only if you are basing this on the words that have been printed in the book.

How long is a piece of string? IT DOES NOT MATTER. But.

Freakzilla wrote:

loremaster wrote:Although i think that the HM were a branch of BG that chose to develop into whores, however desperately, as evidenced by the Murbella's "In Extremis" during her spice agony. I dont think they were co-erced into it like Freak suggests - could be wrong though. I dont think it's clear either way.

I think I missunderstood his question. BG that were sent out into The Scattering were believed to have been subverted.

The HM were believed to have been formed from Fish Speakers and BG "in extremis" like mentioned above.

Neither known for sure, but FH had the characters speculate along these lines.

HBJ

A Little Galach wrote:

loremaster wrote:I'm not sure about Sheanna and her desert mistress, but did you miss the recurrent homosexuality in GEoD?

Oh no, I caught it. I felt like he was scolding establishment America quite a bit in that respect and several others. I think he consistantly used Duncan and the HM's as subjects to have their flaws pointed out by Leto II and the BG. Sexuality, sexism, liberalism, buracreacy, historians, intolerance, etc. I appreciated it more this time around.

GEoD was originally published in Playboy, no? Saucy...

Here are a few quotes about the HM origins:

Chapterhouse Dune wrote:But where could they go? It was a universe beset by Honored Matres and other forces. It was a universe of scattered planets peopled mostly by humans who wanted only to live out their lives in peace - accepting Bene Gesserit guidance in some places, squirming under Honored Matre suppression in many regions, mostly hoping to govern themselves as best they could, the perennial dream of democracy, and then there were always the unknowns. And always the lesson of the Honored Matres! Murbella's clues said Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in extremis formed the Honored Matres. Fish Speaker democracy become Honored Matre autocracy! The clues were too numerous to ignore. But why had they emphasized unconscious compulsions with their T-probes, cellular induction, and sexual prowess?

Chapterhouse Dune wrote:Fish Speakers, that was the revelation the Bene Gesserit absorbed with fascination. They had suspected, but Murbella gave them confirmation. Fish Speaker democracy become Honored Matre autocracy. No more doubts.

Chapterhouse Dune wrote:he said: "I presume we're both seeking a basis for understanding, trying to find similarities between us."

This brought the orange glare. "You may try to understand us but we have no need to understand you."

"Both of us come from societies of women."

"It is dangerous to think of us as your offshoots!"

But Murbella's evidence says you are. Formed in the Scattering by Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in extremis.

Freakzilla wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:

loremaster wrote:The HM were FORMED by Scattered Bene Gesserit in extremis.

The Honored Matres are pretty plainly said to have formed from Fish Speakers, and not Bene Gesserit at all, at the end of GEoD.

There were no HM in GEoD.

Yeah, and um, don't forget that Heighliner that crashes on Chapterhouse Planet! That really affected the BG!

SandChigger wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:

loremaster wrote:The HM were FORMED by Scattered Bene Gesserit in extremis.

The Honored Matres are pretty plainly said to have formed from Fish Speakers, and not Bene Gesserit at all, at the end of GEoD.

There were no HM in GEoD.

Yeah, and um, don't forget that Heighliner that crashes on Chapterhouse Planet! That really affected the BG!

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that one! Who was it again that thought that was in the books?

smegmauty? smooty? semuter? Something like that.


I can actually see a lot of similarities between the two, now that I think about it.

(And no, I'm not implying one's a sock-puppet or anything. It's more a case of convergent behavior, probably resulting from very different causes, like improper potty training and being bounced on the head like a b-ball as an infant.)

BTW, speaking of the HM origins, don't the "Hunters/Sandworms" contain some "revelation" that the Scattered Tleilaxu female axlotl tanks revolted and became the HM's (together with Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers, I suppose?)?

It's more like the Fish Speakers and Bene Gesserit sent out into the Scattering rescue the Tleilaxu tanks, with the impenetrability of their OM explained by some sort of hysteria/outrage and feminine solidarity blah blah blah.

Bullshit, in other words.

A Little Galach wrote:

loremaster wrote:I'm not sure about Sheanna and her desert mistress, but did you miss the recurrent homosexuality in GEoD?

Oh no, I caught it. I felt like he was scolding establishment America quite a bit in that respect and several others.

Very late to this discussion, but as far as we know, FH's opinion about homosexuality was in line with that of establishment America, i.e. strongly negative, and I've yet to read any source or prose of his that suggests otherwise.

Naïve mind wrote: Very late to this discussion, but as far as we know, FH's opinion about homosexuality was in line with that of establishment America, i.e. strongly negative, and I've yet to read any source or prose of his that suggests otherwise.

I can't say I really have a strong opinion on this subject, as I get the sense that Frank just didn't think this a particularly interesting subject to address in his Dune series. However there are two obvious things I can say about it with regards to Dune:

1) The only blatantly homosexual main character we have is the Baron, however this is complicated by him also being a pederast. I'm not sure him being 'the gay character' is meant to be a comment on homosexuality; it's the age of the males he's interested that grosses us out.

2) There is a good reason for there to be almost no homosexual men among the nobility in Dune: Assuming homosexuality has ties to genetics, we can assume that the BG saw to it to breed this trait out of the nobility so that the nobles would all like women and would therefore be more prone to be controlled by BG sexual wiles. To achieve this would have political as well as breeding advantages for the BG.

Frank talks several times about homosexuality in GEoD in how it relates to the military in particularly. Frank's views were colored by the age he lived in to a great degree I'm sure but I think his theories... or at least the writings in GEoD about homosexuality were based on homosexuality and the militaries in antiquity, in particular the Greeks.

It is interesting that in Dune, the only homosexual is a pedophile (the Baron) and by GEoD we see a passage like this which appears to be a bit more "progressive":

Duncan and Moneo after Duncan saw two of the Fish Speakers:

“No!” Moneo gestured at the corridor. “Oh, I know what you must’ve seen back there, but it . . .”

“Two women in a passionate kiss! You think that’s not . . .”

“It’s not important. Youth explores its potential in many ways.”

Further in the conversation:

“He’s our best hope to perpetuate . . .”

“Perverts don’t perpetuate!”

Moneo spoke in a soothing tone, but his words shook Idaho. “I will tell you this only once. Homosexuals have been among the best warriors in our history, the berserkers of last resort. They were among our best priests and priestesses. Celibacy was no accident in religions. It is also no accident that adolescents make the best soldiers.”

He extrapolates on this in The Dosadi Experiment. Homosexuals make good bersekers, because lacking any offspring, or the desire to produce offspring, they have to be nihilists. I think the main character is terrified of them being "unleashed". For a man who, by this time, had an openly gay son, it's not a particularly progressive or hopeful vision of homosexuality.

But I mostly wanted to caution against assuming that just because he was forward-looking about drug use, politics and ecology, he held progressive opinions about everything.

Naïve mind wrote:He extrapolates on this in The Dosadi Experiment. Homosexuals make good bersekers, because lacking any offspring, or the desire to produce offspring, they have to be nihilists. I think the main character is terrified of them being "unleashed". For a man who, by this time, had an openly gay son, it's not a particularly progressive or hopeful vision of homosexuality.

But I mostly wanted to caution against assuming that just because he was forward-looking about drug use, politics and ecology, he held progressive opinions about everything.

I would caution you about taking these particular facts to be proof that Frank was 'regressive' on this issue; indeed, we don't know as of yet the relationship between the breeding instinct and the outlook on life in general. I'm not saying it's one thing or another, but we don't know. With the BG we see a strong theme in Dune about ties to ancestry and to the long heritage of passing on genes. In the Duniverse, at least, breeding is elevated to mean more than just having babies being a social trend that people want a part of. It has implications in personal character, in planning for future generations, in communing with the genetic past, and in learning about how to connect past with future and to have a real now.

Homosexuals, strictly speaking, don't participate in the future of genetics, and so this makes them markedly different in this subtle but important respect. This is especially so in the Duniverse, where artificial insemination (i.e. sperm donation) is banned, and where if a homosexual wanted offspring he would have to mate directly with a woman. What are the implications of someone cut off from continuing the genetic lineage? Frank posits something on this topic, but it might be more fair to suggest this is his estimation of the facts, rather than to say this shows he is 'for' or 'against' homosexuality. He may, in fact, have been against it (I don't know), but I'm not sure the contents of Dune shows this.