Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

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Superdog
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Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Superdog » 06 May 2010 20:42

Here's how I have always viewed Paul's jihad, and I was wondering if this made sense to any one other than me.

The BG go around the galaxy seeding myths to primitive people, no? On Arrakis this was the messiah myth, presumably messiah myths were seeded on other "primitive" cultures as well. When the KH shows up, then he will present himself as the messiah to the primitives, and no matter what planet this happens on these people, likely downtrodden and ground under the bootheel of the feudalistic system, will follow their messiah, who is controlled by the BG, on a wave of violence.

Thus the BG will achieve power, or at the very least re-structure all of society to their whims. The highest goal would be to have the KH under their control placed on the throne. Now, this is where I see Paul as a victim of fate. Because of who he was, how he was bred, his mother' choice and the Emperor's command for Atreides to control Arrakis, he fit right into the whole BG design, unwittingly, like a puzzle piece. Which then leads us to him, in Cave of the Birds, realizing the Jihad is a foregone conclusion unless he somehow kills himself, Stilgar, Chani, his mom and everyone else present. Which, of course, Noble Paul is not willing to die, and is forced to ride a roller coaster of human suffering ending with him dying on the steps of the temple in Arrakeen, 21 years later. :think:

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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Freakzilla » 06 May 2010 21:17

Absolutely
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Nekhrun » 06 May 2010 21:48

If they had been treated better by Shaddam and the rest of the ruling houses they might not have been so inclined to kill billions of them though. They brought it on by allowing the Fremen to be mistreated for generations.
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Freakzilla » 06 May 2010 22:17

There would have been some kind of general strife no matter what, whether Paul's Fremen or Paulette and Feyd's Son's Sardaukar. I don't think the BG were anymore responsible for the stagnation of humanity that any of the other factions. They were more prepared for it than others, though.
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Superdog » 06 May 2010 22:58

So did "primitives" from other planets join the jihad or was it just Fremen? I always thought it would make sense for oppressed people from all over the Empire to flock to Muad'dib's flag to wreak horrible vengeance on their oppressors, lacking the self awareness to see that they are just making new oppressed people and continuing the cycle of violence.

Also, do we assume the BG would have used a Jihad to do similar things, how would a Jihad led by a BG controlled KH work? Is the stagnation of humanity caused by the general inhumanity of the feudalistic system?

and so on

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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Freakzilla » 07 May 2010 00:54

Only Fremen were on the Jihad as far as FH wrote.... the rest would be just conjecture.
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A Little Galach
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby A Little Galach » 07 May 2010 11:20

Freakzilla wrote:Only Fremen were on the Jihad as far as FH wrote.... the rest would be just conjecture.



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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Lundse » 07 May 2010 11:34

A Little Galach wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Only Fremen were on the Jihad as far as FH wrote.... the rest would be just conjecture.


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lotek
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby lotek » 07 May 2010 18:59

you've also got to remember that the Missionaria's work had been altered on Arrakis, as Jessica realizes when trying to use what she was taught.
When put into light with your analysis, and also that Paul was himself an alteration of the breeding program, it does raise some questions regarding the origin of that tampering.
It could just be because of the specific combination of a highly receptive people, one the harshest planets in the universe, but the way Jessica reacts makes me think it is not a common thing, as the necessary conditions might have been reproduced somewhere else in time otherwise.

To finish with another riddle, I'd like to mention the report on the BG's blatant incompetence in not recognizing the potential in Paul(Dune appendix I believe).

I just find strange that sort of coincidence; I am not implying the influence of a common agency in both cases, even though it is an easy explanation(fucking deus ex machina): I see it more in a kind of fate, a bit like the KH molds the future by his actions, he is himself molded into what he becomes by the past in the wider sense(obviously not just the past directly related to him)

So yes the BG is reponsible for the Jihad, but not in the way they intended to. Why? This I don't know and I don't think Frank meant us to know.
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Freakzilla » 07 May 2010 19:08

lotek wrote:To finish with another riddle, I'd like to mention the report on the BG's blatant incompetence in not recognizing the potential in Paul(Dune appendix I believe).


Appendix III
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Freakzilla » 07 May 2010 19:09

I believe it was Crysknife who put forward the theory that it was the collective consciousness of the Fremen that was responsible.
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby Tleszer » 07 May 2010 23:03

Freakzilla wrote:I believe it was Crysknife who put forward the theory that it was the collective consciousness of the Fremen that was responsible.

I could buy that, since I think the Fremen shared visions during the spice orgies.
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby mrpsbrk » 01 Jun 2010 19:46

Superdog wrote:So did "primitives" from other planets join the jihad or was it just Fremen? I always thought it would make sense for oppressed people from all over the Empire to flock to Muad'dib's flag to wreak horrible vengeance on their oppressors, lacking the self awareness to see that they are just making new oppressed people and continuing the cycle of violence.


Even if Paul starts his path as trying to defend the oppressed, by the end of Dune his is the oppressor. Leto II latter talking about Siona's rebellion comments how much this is prone to happen.

As for the Jihad being "BG's fault", i would have to say no.

There have always been strife, and there ever will be, and that is not exactly a bad thing either, but the extremes are likely not a very good idea -- and Paul's Jihad was extreme. Probably without him, there would still be wars, but his war was bigger longer and uncut.
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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby merkin muffley » 01 Jun 2010 20:25

Superdog wrote:So did "primitives" from other planets join the jihad or was it just Fremen?


I assumed there would've been non-Fremen people involved in the jihad because there are so many off-world pilgrims, meaning that Muad'Dib's religion has followers all over the universe, which might mean that there are people all over the universe that support the jihad. But all of that is conjecture, and I'm sure Freakzilla is correct that there's no explicit reference to non-Fremens fighting in Muad'Dib's army.

mrpsbrk wrote:As for the Jihad being "BG's fault", i would have to say no.


I would have to say yes. Like Superdog, I see Paul as a victim of fate, caught up in a Bene Gesserit strategy. The BG discovered that they couldn't control what they'd created, but they did create it. Most of what I would say has already been said in this discussion, but here's something from the end of Part One of DUNE:

He had seen a warrior religion there, a fire spreading across the universe with the Atreides green and black banner waving at the head of fanatic legions drunk on spice liquor. Gurney Halleck and a few others of his father's men-- a pitiful few-- were among them, all marked by the hawk symbol from the shrine of his father's skull.

"I can't go that way," he muttered. "That's what the old witches of your schools really want."



mrpsbrk wrote:his war was bigger longer and uncut.


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Re: Are the Bene Gesserit responsible for the Jihad?

Postby SandChigger » 02 Jun 2010 01:45

merkin muffley wrote:
mrpsbrk wrote:his war was bigger longer and uncut.


You're sexy.

:laughing-rolling:


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