Jessica's mother

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SimonH
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Jessica's mother

Postby SimonH » 26 Oct 2009 23:14

I've just been re-reading the series. This paraphraph jumped out at me

FH in Children of Dune wrote:"The Lady Jessica plans to breed those twins together!" he rasped. "That's
what the Sisterhood wants. Incest!"
She blinked. "Idle rumor." She swallowed, "The Bene Gesserits will not let
such a rumor run wild in the Imperium. We still have some influence. Remember
that."
"Rumor? What rumor? You've certainly held your options open on interbreeding
us." He shook his head as she started to speak. "Don't deny it. Let us pass
puberty still living in the same household and you in that household, and your
influence will be no more than a rag waved in the face of a sandworm."
"Do you believe us to be such utter fools?" Jessica asked.
"Indeed I do. Your Sisterhood is nothing but a bunch of damn fool old women
who haven't thought beyond their precious breeding program! Ghani and I know the
leverage they have. Do you think us fools?"
"Leverage?"
"They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. That record accidentally made public would pull your teeth to --"


is Tanidia Nerus Jessica's mother?? has this already been discussed? Is this another nail in the coffin for the Mohiam argument?
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SandChigger » 26 Oct 2009 23:52

Yes.
Yes.
And ... yes. :)

At least until Leto the Tard of Dune retcons it. ;)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Lundse » 27 Oct 2009 02:31

SimonH wrote:Is this another nail in the coffin for the Mohiam argument?


It is _the_ nail, as far as I am concerned. Another interesting one is that the Dune Encyclopedia article is written with intentional errors, such as claiming that Leto II was immature, or did not have his full OM, or was trying to spare Jessica at the time (he is obviously rattling her).

Mohiam as the mother of Jessica is a cheap "wow"-gimmick. No wonder it appeals to a certain Dynamic Duo...

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nampigai
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby nampigai » 27 Oct 2009 02:34

:shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SandChigger » 27 Oct 2009 05:08

Because they are liars?

Because they have no discernment, and probably can't tell what FH would have eventually used or had already discarded in his mind?

Because the Bahr bela Ma is deep and wide?
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby nampigai » 27 Oct 2009 05:29

I’m actually happy that I stopped reading KJA/BH 50 or so pages into Butlerian Jihad, and I’ve vowed never to read any of their books again.

KJA and BH should receive the same punishment as the historians Leto execute – only Kevin and Bwian shouldn’t be doped first…

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SandChigger » 27 Oct 2009 05:35

Baraka fi s-Sani wa-mauh... ;)

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby TheDukester » 27 Oct 2009 10:16

SandChigger wrote:Because they have no discernment, and probably can't tell what FH would have eventually used or had already discarded in his mind?

I've always wondered about this aspect of the alleged "notes." Are all of the notes dated? My strong hunch would be "no, not even close."

So, in theory, Keith and Bobo are free to pillage wherever and whatever they like, not caring that they might be using old, outdated notes that FH clearly didn't intend to actually use (or else discarded completely when the story went in another direction). Then, following the inevitable criticism, the Idiots Squared can always smirk and say, "we got it from the notes."

What a farce.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SandChigger » 27 Oct 2009 12:09

What a shame if no attempt was made to organize or at least record what was where before they started pillaging.

I mean, I ask you, does BoBo impress you as a serious archivist? :roll:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Seraphan » 27 Oct 2009 12:50

SandChigger wrote:I mean, I ask you, does BoBo impress you as a serious archivist? :roll:

A serious bullshiter maybe, and even at that he's not convincing.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Serkanner » 27 Oct 2009 12:54

SandChigger wrote:I mean, I ask you, does BoBo impress you as a serious archivist? :roll:


Only in his wine cellar.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby TheDukester » 27 Oct 2009 12:55

SandChigger wrote:I mean, I ask you, does BoBo impress you as a serious archivist?

I wouldn't give him a vote of confidence in being able to organize a sock drawer.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Oct 2009 14:08

TheDukester wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Because they have no discernment, and probably can't tell what FH would have eventually used or had already discarded in his mind?

I've always wondered about this aspect of the alleged "notes." Are all of the notes dated? My strong hunch would be "no, not even close."

So, in theory, Keith and Bobo are free to pillage wherever and whatever they like, not caring that they might be using old, outdated notes that FH clearly didn't intend to actually use (or else discarded completely when the story went in another direction). Then, following the inevitable criticism, the Idiots Squared can always smirk and say, "we got it from the notes."

What a farce.



They actaully did try to use the "notes" excuse for some scene in one of their House books that FH wrote and discarded - but he didn't even write and discard it for the book, he wrote and discarded it for the MOVIE.

They hve no shame at all.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Oct 2009 14:46

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Because they have no discernment, and probably can't tell what FH would have eventually used or had already discarded in his mind?

I've always wondered about this aspect of the alleged "notes." Are all of the notes dated? My strong hunch would be "no, not even close."

So, in theory, Keith and Bobo are free to pillage wherever and whatever they like, not caring that they might be using old, outdated notes that FH clearly didn't intend to actually use (or else discarded completely when the story went in another direction). Then, following the inevitable criticism, the Idiots Squared can always smirk and say, "we got it from the notes."

What a farce.



They actaully did try to use the "notes" excuse for some scene in one of their House books that FH wrote and discarded - but he didn't even write and discard it for the book, he wrote and discarded it for the MOVIE.

They hve no shame at all.


Wasn't that the Duke's buyers going to the BG school and picking Jessica out?
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Oct 2009 14:54

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Because they have no discernment, and probably can't tell what FH would have eventually used or had already discarded in his mind?

I've always wondered about this aspect of the alleged "notes." Are all of the notes dated? My strong hunch would be "no, not even close."

So, in theory, Keith and Bobo are free to pillage wherever and whatever they like, not caring that they might be using old, outdated notes that FH clearly didn't intend to actually use (or else discarded completely when the story went in another direction). Then, following the inevitable criticism, the Idiots Squared can always smirk and say, "we got it from the notes."

What a farce.



They actaully did try to use the "notes" excuse for some scene in one of their House books that FH wrote and discarded - but he didn't even write and discard it for the book, he wrote and discarded it for the MOVIE.

They hve no shame at all.


Wasn't that the Duke's buyers going to the BG school and picking Jessica out?


I think that was it, yess.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Nekhrun » 27 Oct 2009 20:16

nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SimonH » 27 Oct 2009 20:20

Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby redbugpest » 27 Oct 2009 20:53

SimonH wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P


I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"

I am still struggling with what the answer really is.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SimonH » 27 Oct 2009 21:12

redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P


I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"

I am still struggling with what the answer really is.


sorry, but you are a clown. re-read the books. I'm up to my third time and I'm still picking up new stuff.

how do you think Ghanima knew that the Baron was her grandfather? Do you think she would really search out this information in her OM and not find out who her grandmother was - an equally interesting fact...
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Redstar » 27 Oct 2009 21:24

Great-grand...

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby SimonH » 27 Oct 2009 22:10

Redstar wrote:Great-grand...


thank you :oops:
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby redbugpest » 28 Oct 2009 11:49

SimonH wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P


I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"

I am still struggling with what the answer really is.


sorry, but you are a clown. re-read the books. I'm up to my third time and I'm still picking up new stuff.

how do you think Ghanima knew that the Baron was her grandfather? Do you think she would really search out this information in her OM and not find out who her grandmother was - an equally interesting fact...


Like I said, there is no consistency as far as I can see. I am continuing to look into it, since OM interests me.

BTW, I have read the books more than three times and am still looking for answers to things I find in them, so I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Idahopotato » 28 Oct 2009 11:59

redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
nampigai wrote::shock: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?

Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?


are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? :P, sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their arguments :P


I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"

I am still struggling with what the answer really is.


sorry, but you are a clown. re-read the books. I'm up to my third time and I'm still picking up new stuff.

how do you think Ghanima knew that the Baron was her grandfather? Do you think she would really search out this information in her OM and not find out who her grandmother was - an equally interesting fact...


Like I said, there is no consistency as far as I can see. I am continuing to look into it, since OM interests me.

BTW, I have read the books more than three times and am still looking for answers to things I find in them, so I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..

Image


Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.

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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby redbugpest » 28 Oct 2009 12:25

Idahopotato wrote:
Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.


Funny, but I thought I said I was still looking into OM, and how this could or could not be the case. Where do you get the "forget how to" crap from what I said?

Never mind - I don't think I really want to see the logic train wreck you would have for it.
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Re: Jessica's mother

Postby Serkanner » 28 Oct 2009 12:27

redbugpest wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.


Funny, but I thought I said I was still looking into OM, and how this could or could not be the case. Where do you get the "forget how to" crap from what I said?

Never mind - I don't think I really want to see the logic train wreck you would have for it.


You have been drinking to much from your "ignorance" bottle today haven't you. Or are you truly just THAT stupid?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."


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