Freakzilla wrote:
He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough. "
-from "Arrakis Awakening" by the Princess Irulan
Coming from Irulan who is not only Paul's wife but a BG.
Do I really need to explain? Isn’t it obvious from the books anyway?
Starting from the quote angle it seems like the quote may have been written after DM..
But I was more focussing on the “denied the conventions of his ducal past” which he justifies by being the KH. Since he feels the need to justify it someone must have been objecting, not the Fremen certainly, the general population – probably not. Those objecting would have to be from the Lanstrad or at the very least houses minor – who else would care. The quote also indicates that Paul did not try to hide that he was a KH and if anything announced it to reinforce his rule.
Even if you don’t believe that argument - the Fremen knew he was the KH (or at the very least that he took the water of life and survived) and it was part of the religion that surrounded Paul, which the Fremen then spread over the universe in the jihad.
Secondly if the the house that had be ruling for the last 10,000(?)yrs (a very long time at least) was forced to give up their empire to the young duke of a family that was meant to be wiped out, who also at the same time managed to gain control over the Guild. People would ask questions (of course they would investigate their new ruler and the Fremen culture/religion with which he was affiliated) and since he was by no means hiding the fact that he was a KH, they would have found out rather easily – everybody on Arakis knew.
I think the whole empire knew, it was part of their new religion after all and nobody was keeping it a secret.
There were and still are scientist who support cellular genetic memory.
That wasn’t my actual point obviously it was believed possible at the time Dune was written.
My point: the easiest way for the BT to gain a KH – Clone Paul.
However I should have said it would have given them evidence for ‘genetic memory’ not the idea.
And since this topic went on to be debated I will point out that the DNA in nerve cell is exactly the same as it is in every other somatic cell in the body (apart from the fact that different cell types have different parts of the DNA ‘activated’ i.e. those genes being expressed - the parts being actively transcribed into mRNA and hence proteins or the parts needed for coding for making the products needed by that cell e.g. serotonin, dopamine etc. in nerve cell as opposed to keratin for instance in skin cells. This difference wouldn’t give genetic memory as it is reversible methylation of the DNA and this pattern of activation changes throughout the development of a blastocyst to an embryo to a fetus to a baby/child).
Also personality and memory are (as far as it is known) found in the connections between neurons not the neurons themselves.
You should look for a geneticist not scientists – everybody is very specialised and may not have any idea about other disciplines and the longer they have been in a particular discipline the more likely this is.
Ok I have not actually looked at the links (couldn’t see its relevance to Dune so I couldn’t be bothered) but when scientists say genetic memory they may be talking about something completely different, more specifically that the genes/DNA itself has memory – like studies that show that children and grandchildren suffer from effects of their parents/grandparents periods of prolonged starvation (e.g. WWII) which shouldn’t affect the DNA (and cannot affect its sequence) and hence shouldn’t affect their descendents. Also the idea (though I don’t think this is linked to the term genetic memory as such) that it matters that one set of chromosomes came from the father and the other the mother c.f. angelman syndrome and prader-willi syndrome – same gene causes distinct disorders depending on whether the problem is with the paternal of maternal chromosome (this acts through gene expression/activation).
Didn't I say that?
Yes I was trying to make sure I understood, so you could correct me if it wasn’t what you meant.
I said it wasn't perfect. If I knew how he did it, I'd be prescient.
But if you have some idea it may mean your theory was more believable or at least indicate that you had thought it through. Why make up a theory that you don’t fully understand or that you can' justify?
Seeing the future changes it, thus creating the future. It is my theory that the oracle creates a sphere of influence just by predicting it. One oracle is clouded by another's or a no-feild's.
I see that is what I thought you were going for however this still fails to explain the no-fields as they being mechanical cannot see and hence change the future.
It is also my theory that Siona and her descendants are latent prescients and this shields them.
But if it is seeing the future that means they are capable of changing it, being latent prescients and hence ones that while capable do not in fact see the future would mean they would not be changing the future or in their current state of mind not have the ability and hence wouldn’t be shielded from prescience. Though I agree that Siona’s descendents have latent prescient abilities.
Though there is no indication in the books that anyone but a KH has the ability to alter the ‘paths’ people would take (change the future). (Teg a descendent of Sonia only ever see one path).
Though the only people we know that see such paths are Paul, Alia and Leto.
(Maybe the guildsmen, but then do they really see paths or just the one path where the ship arrives safe. Their oracle is rather interesting too.)
OK
Does this mean you agree?
You do realise though that the ‘quantum prescience’ and the ‘sphere of influence prescience’ must be mutually exclusive. Because even of the ‘projection’ meant a person took a different path then they would otherwise this would still be accounted for in the quantum and they wouldn’t be shielded.
For quantum prescience to be true shielding would be impossible. Though Paul is the only one that requires this explanation for his abilities within your theory (but fits in with the idea that Paul was different to the rest – more than a KH). So if you ignore Paul your theory is actually possible how you explain Paul just gets harder though.
What don't you understand? Teg is a descendant of Ghanima.
I know he was, that was just for completeness (after Paul and Leto maybe Alia he has the greatest prescient abilities).
I don’t get what you mean when you say ‘natural prescience’ at this stage do they actually see the future? And if you need mentat abilities to be prescient it would be impossible to predict the future i.e. have prescient dreams before gaining such abilities – though again this only fails to explain Paul – I also though part of your theory was that for prescience – however it works- was that they needed OM. So same thing as above, they wouldn’t be able to be prescient before gaining OM – fails to explain Paul and Teg.
I'm pretty sure she totally loses it at some point, I'll look for a quote later. I never said Leto wasn't possessed, I'm not sure what the point of that quote is.
Just backing up my earlier post mostly, thought I might as well.
No, it has to do with male ancestral personas being dominant and malignant and possessing their host (in the case of females).
Sorry your wrong. Ghanima as male and female OM and doesn't become possessed, she in fact discovers a way to avoid possession - namely gaining her own personality seperate to OM and having a benelovent ancestor protect her. Leto on the other hand becomes possessed at least in part by the pharoah. Being posessed is a danger for all the pre-born as they cannot fully seperate themselve from OM. It seems to me like they are almost part of OM themselves.
There has been much discussion about this, even going so far as to suggest that chani was given the WoL by Irulan in an attempt to kill her. I think my explanation is the most direct from what evidence there is in the book.
You’re right. I never put the contraceptive and the spice together in my mind so I had a problem with high spice diet being the only cause. It could have been something else but with the given facts your explanation is by far the most likely.
Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
And whose opinion were you expecting it to be?
Do you concede that the BG don’t actually know what’s in the place that terrifies them?
Do you have an idea why they are so terrified if it is merely male OM?
Do you know why Paul claims to stare out of it?
Pix
(I wish you'd put some spaces between your points or something, it'd make it easier to respond to.)
I'll admit it's possible the BT KH was a clone of Paul, I don't think it's likely.
No
Done
and..
Progress?
Actually, from the evidence in the books it is the most likely.
I remember that the BG don’t know the specific genetic complement needed for a KH, because with Duncan in HoD/ChD they have full access to his DNA and still have no idea whether or not he is a KH. Teg is afraid they will kill him on suspicion of being a KH if he tells them he can see no-ships and the future – they already know his genetic code and certainly would have picked up that he wasn’t one and hence Teg would feel no threat.
So the only way for the BT to find such a sequence would be to start from Paul, work their way back, his father and mother, his grandfather etc. go through some trial and error – very time consuming stuff.
Then there is the added issue that the BT cannot create a KH ‘from scratch’ and have it still be a KH. As I explained before to be called a KH and individual must have prescient abilities and OM. A BT creation made from scratch would not have any ancestors being ‘new’ and hence would be incapable of OM.
Then for the BT it becomes a balancing act with adding the ‘KH genes’ to someone else’s genome. How much of the genome do these ‘KH genes’ take up? One would assume quite a lot but you never know. How much can you alter the original ‘donor’ genome before it becomes too different from the original to have OM? Can you alter it at all and still retain the potential to have OM?
There is no doubt the BT would have tried to do such things. (I’m thinking that the BT dwarf in DM (Barj?) which claims to have prescient abilities may have been a result of such experiments.)
Cloning Paul is by far the simplest (and fastest) solution for how they obtained a KH.
The BT may not have even had time between Dune and DM to create one from scratch, it would have required years of research.
Then there is what is says in the books.
"We sold you a creature called Hayt," Scytale said.
"Ah, yes -- Hayt," Edric said. "Why did you sell him to us?"
"Because we once bred a Kwisatz Haderach of our own," Scytale said.
With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him.
"You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
"You didn't ask," Scytale said.
"How did you overcome your Kwisatz Haderach?" Irulan asked.
"A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation," Scytale said.
"I do not understand," Edric ventured.
"He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled.
How devious she must not guess, Scytale thought. When this is done, we will possess a Kwisatz Haderach we can control. These others will possess nothing.
"What was the origin of your Kwisatz Haderach?" the Reverend Mother asked.
"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."
"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.
"Not one of ours," Scytale said. "But then nature often produces creations as deadly as ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."
How does a BT creature created solely for research have “one particular representation of his selfdom”? How does a BT creation even have an antithesis that is more in line with what the BT want then their own personality? (i.e. being raised by the BT how can it have a personality contrary to the BT wants unless they were just messing with it which i unlikely considering whatever KH they made would also have to be one of them)
Then “we will possess a KH we can control” – fare enough controlling Paul through Chani (and Duncan?) but how come they couldn’t control the one they created in heir labs?
It makes sense if it is a clone of Paul that had remembered his past life (current life?).
Personally I think Scytale changes the subject to the talk of pure essences when asked about the origin of their KH. I don’t see how a KH in any form would be ‘pure essence’ i.e. the distillation of one particular aspect – prescience (and OM) would reveal too much for them to stay ‘pure’. Well that’s my evidence for it being a change of subject if you don’t think that way when reading the text. It looks to me like Scytale lead them away from the subject of the KH to that of the Baron.
(Irulan asked a really stupid question for a BG who should at least know something about the breeding programme)
So I'll say again - Cloning Paul is the simplest, fastest and most likely solution.