KWISATZ HADERACH

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    One of the two remaining Great Schools tasked with mentoring humanity

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lotek
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 10 Jun 2010 15:13

Freakzilla wrote:A natural KH would be impotent without being born into a position of some power.


yeah we had that discussion before(i ll try to dig it out)
All the pieces fit really, no supa dupa KH in Frank's Dune, like magical powers that create stuff from nothing.
A KH sees the nexus of paths but he needs the "down to earth" power to stir humanity the way he wants to.

The same without that would just be some form of local authority, not devoid of influence(he can see the future), but lacking greater scope.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jun 2010 17:38

Paul without the Fremen would have been nothing, for example.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Jun 2010 02:04

Just for the sake of debate though, would not a KH do very well at getting himself into a situation like that? A KH should be able to take over a planet fairly easily, and then from there can move forwards.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 04:16

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Just for the sake of debate though, would not a KH do very well at getting himself into a situation like that? A KH should be able to take over a planet fairly easily, and then from there can move forwards.


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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Little Galach » 11 Jun 2010 08:38

The guild could isolate a KH on whatever backwater he was on and/or get the emperor to eliminate him via sardaukar, no?

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 08:43

A Little Galach wrote:The guild could isolate a KH on whatever backwater he was on and/or get the emperor to eliminate him via sardaukar, no?


Of course, the only reason they couldn't do that to Paul is because he threatened to destroy the spice.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby DragEgusku » 11 Jun 2010 09:21

Thought Guild Navigators can not see a KH. At least he writes in Dune Messiah, the Navigators and Paul each blind.
A Kwisatz Haderach could reach power rather infiltrating the court of Emperor and removing it in one way or another. For example might appear as Mentat, make themselves useful and to be near him. I think there are many other possibilities for KH to avoid being destroyed and to take political power.
After all a KH has considerable resources, such as other memories. If among other memories are some of the Bene Gesserit, it makes even more possibilities.
What is KH? An individual who brings together the capabilities of a Bene Gesserit, of a Navigator and a Mentat. I understood that the description in the novel.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 09:30

Yes, but he would need to have the right people near him to influence.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby DragEgusku » 11 Jun 2010 10:01

Do not quite understand what you say. A KH's side could attract many people, including manipulation techniques Bene Gesserit, if it wishes. Above we described the possibility that it could obtain power, influencing him the Emperor and replacing it eventually.
If you wanted to say something else, please provide details. Sometimes Google Translate does not work too well.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 10:06

If the KH is on a backwater planet surrounded by a bunch of farmers there is only so far he could go. He couldn't even rise to planetary governor because he wouldn't be a noble.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Omphalos » 11 Jun 2010 10:17

We coulda had a grass roots messiah.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby DragEgusku » 11 Jun 2010 10:33

Now I understand. Even so, there remain possibilities. For example, to function as Mentat, for this I think is not required to be noble. True, so would not formally political power, but whether it would influence the Emperor, it means practically to have de facto power.
Another possibility would be to influence the Emperor to make him noble, giving him an official rank. Then just might become Emperor and have political power de facto and de jure.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 11:57

DragEgusku wrote:Now I understand. Even so, there remain possibilities. For example, to function as Mentat, for this I think is not required to be noble.


No, but mentat training from birth is required, I'm sure that cost more that the average faufreluche can afford.

True, so would not formally political power, but whether it would influence the Emperor, it means practically to have de facto power.
Another possibility would be to influence the Emperor to make him noble, giving him an official rank. Then just might become Emperor and have political power de facto and de jure.


To influence the emperor, you would need access to him. Why would the emperor be hanging around with pyons?
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Little Galach » 11 Jun 2010 12:10

DragEgusku wrote:Thought Guild Navigators can not see a KH. At least he writes in Dune Messiah, the Navigators and Paul each blind.
A Kwisatz Haderach could reach power rather infiltrating the court of Emperor and removing it in one way or another. For example might appear as Mentat, make themselves useful and to be near him. I think there are many other possibilities for KH to avoid being destroyed and to take political power.
After all a KH has considerable resources, such as other memories. If among other memories are some of the Bene Gesserit, it makes even more possibilities.
What is KH? An individual who brings together the capabilities of a Bene Gesserit, of a Navigator and a Mentat. I understood that the description in the novel.


If you're a threat to the status quo the guild is not getting you off of whatever planet you happen to wrestle control of. Period. Anything that threatens the spice, the emperor or CHOAM is not going to be transported anywhere.

Even if they couldn't see a KH, they could figure out that a peasant, usurper rabble-rouser wanted to go to Kaitan, GP, Salusa or wherever. Prescience aside, that's a cargo they wouldn't take because it would lead to a possible disruption of the spice and therefore their livlihood and payday.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Thodol » 11 Jun 2010 13:09

Even with Paul being at the perfect time/place to take control of the galaxy he barely pulled it off. And that is being on a planet preconditioned for the arrival of a messiah, being the duke of a major house with mentat/BG training, having access to house atomics and the ability to destroy all spice production in a single act. Yet it still came down to a knife fight he could have lost (granted he could have probably avoided that) and Fenring abstaining from challenging him.

With the deck that stacked the fact it came down to choice made by the emperors right hand man shows how the stars must align for it to have happened. In such a feudalistic society just not being a noble would have crippled what a KH could accomplish.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2010 13:13

Thodol wrote:Even with Paul being at the perfect time/place to take control of the galaxy he barely pulled it off. And that is being on a planet preconditioned for the arrival of a messiah, being the duke of a major house with mentat/BG training, having access to house atomics and the ability to destroy all spice production in a single act. Yet it still came down to a knife fight he could have lost (granted he could have probably avoided that) and Fenring abstaining from challenging him.

With the deck that stacked the fact it came down to choice made by the emperors right hand man shows how the stars must align for it to have happened. In such a feudalistic society just not being a noble would have crippled what a KH could accomplish.


You forgot the all important, surviving a poison narcotic no male has ever survived (taking the being a genetically bred superhuman gifted with as a given, of course).
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby MrFlibble » 13 Jun 2010 07:53

Freakzilla wrote:
DragEgusku wrote:Now I understand. Even so, there remain possibilities. For example, to function as Mentat, for this I think is not required to be noble.


No, but mentat training from birth is required, I'm sure that cost more that the average faufreluche can afford.

It is certainly mentioned somewhere in the books that Mentats did not have to be nobles, and could occupy minor positions in the society. I've always thought that potential future Mentats were sought out for training, since mental ablities of an individual are paramount in this issue, and not ancestry or wealth.

Also, IIRC Leto or someone else of the Atreides household mentions that a Mentat Duke - which Paul was supposed to become - was quite a rare occurrence, implying that Mentats usually did not come from noble backgrounds.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby D Pope » 19 Jun 2010 13:03

I agree, being a mentat is just a job like being an electrician. True, schooling begins way early, there's no knowing if you'll become one, still just a job. Being noble is a birthright.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 25 Jul 2010 07:42

This is going to be long, I though I might as well say everything I wanted to at once.

Paul said he wasn't a Mentat
"I'll never be a Mentat." he said. "I'm something else ... a freak."
though it seems that he has something greater then Mentat abilities.

So to begin...
Wouldn’t the Bene Teilaxu KH have to be a clone of Paul. I always thought that before Paul became emperor the only people that knew about the KH where the BG (those that had been exposed to the Missionaria Protectiva had prophecies but no real concept). So if the Teilaxu, having no previous knowledge of the genetic profile of the KH were to create one they would go to the source i.e. Paul. Since being the KH is based on genetics, cloning Paul is the simplest solution (especially since this is before the discovery that they could ‘reawaken’ a clone/ghola, and hence wouldn’t imagine any potential problems arising from such). However with a KH that is a ghola/clone once they awakened their prescient abilities/awaken their other memory the memories of their past life must also return. This allows for how the Teilaxu discovered that the past memories can be awakened, they then send Duncan to see if normal people (people that aren’t a KH) can have their past memory awaked. Add to this that they would have no other way (aside from a clone of Paul) to ‘create’ a KH – the BG themselves had many failed attempts.

As for the KH in general - which as I see it needs to have prescience and OM to be considered such.
Those with OM: Bene Gesserit (female only), Paul, Alia, Leto II, Ghanima, all other pre-born/abominations, (Teilaxu KH – maybe – not enough information given – clone of Paul? Would have OM).

Those with prescience: Guild (Limited – due to huge consumption of spice), Fremen (Due to huge intake of spice/water of life ceremony – collectively ignored - limited), Paul, Alia (eventually failed - around the time Paul walked into the desert), Leto II, Teilaxu KH (clone of Paul? – killed himself), (also? the dwarf/master from DM), Odrae (very limited – due to Atreides heritage), Miles Teg (only sees one path and only about three minutes in the future – independent of spice).

“Yet there’s a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot—into both feminine and masculine pasts.”
“Your Kwisatz Haderach?”
“Yes, the one who can be in many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. ....”

I take this to mean that obtaining male and female OM from the drug is almost like the litmus test for the KH. An acid turns blue litmus red but that is only one property of an acid, but only and acid will turn blue litmus red. So the KH will gain male and female OM through taking the drug but that is not what a KH is only a way of recognising the KH. It also means only those with male and female OM and prescience (Pauls predictive dreams were an indicator of being a KH) can be a KH.
Potential KH: Paul, Alia, Leto II, (also Teilaxu KH – maybe – not useful so much due to lack of information).

Implied in this quote and throughout the series is also that the KH must be male, possibly due to the fact that all prescience from a female appears very limited (Alia – only one to lose their ability (Paul? Though in CoD he can see the present, so doesn’t seem to have lost the ability as implied by Leto II and sort of at the end of DM) Odrae – only in very vague/limited dreams/instinct).
Possibly this has to do with how the spice works on males and females. Female: gives them OM (female) i.e. look to the past. Male: gives them prescience i.e. look to the future. It is implied that enough spice will give you visions though whether they are of the past of future (present?) is undefined. This indicates that the Guild is the male version of the BG. This is backed up by the concept that guildsmen are absolutely saturated in spice and presumably would be able to take spice essence (one of the three drugs that create a reverend mother) without dying i.e. they could take the drug mentioned in the quote and survive and not be the KH (just like reverend mothers can take it and are not reverend mothers)
(On a tangent - The Guild can’t (is highly unlikely) to have male OM 1. There is no indication what-so-ever of them having such, but then again Frank Herbert doesn’t spell things out – so 2. If they did have OM their behaviour as an organisation would be different i.e. they would know the end point of their parasitic existence and male OM would never stand it – all those dictators and conquerors.)
Though In CoD Leto II says that if he fails that Ghanima would/must take up the golden path, which means either that part of GP didn’t need a KH to implement or Ghanima could become a KH even though female.
So now potential KH are narrowed down to Paul and Leto II (and Teilaxu KH).

Thirdly this quote implies that to be the KH, OM must be gained through the drug. So Leto II who was pre-born and had OM before he took the drug by the BGs own reckoning wouldn’t be considered a KH.
Leaving only Paul (and the Teilaxu KH which is most likely a clone of Paul) as the only one(s) that fit all the definitions of being a KH. Paul himself is the only one that is known to actually achieve what is stated in the quote as what a KH is.

It also is interesting how the reverend mother begins “It is said...” implying that someone separate to the BG originally said what follows after, if it arose from within the BG wouldn’t she have said “We say...” rather than “It is said...”. Which brings up the question of who actually said it, and where the idea of the KH came from originally as it is implied that Paul is the first. Hence a random KH alive at the time gave the BG the idea and if it was that close it wouldn’t take generations to breed.
But then again if a voice was to speak to them from within the part that terrorises them the BG would likely listen i.e. what if it was the KH who said it originally –if OM can speak into his mind why can’t he do it to theirs (Alia does it). Since it can be taken that to ‘be in many places at once’ can mean many places in time past/present/future. Paul himself has an inability to distinguish the three e.g. before he takes the sand/worm rider test he takes time to reorient himself in the present and when he takes the water of life he claims to see the present and that it only took a few seconds yet it was a number of weeks, therefore he must have began to see the ‘present’ at the instant he woke up and so initially he saw the future and was unaware of the fact i.e. he saw everything as the ‘present’ and couldn’t distinguish the future (and past) from it – it was all one to him.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jul 2010 08:12

I'm going to need some coffee...
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jul 2010 08:56

Ayat wrote:This is going to be long, I though I might as well say everything I wanted to at once.

Paul said he wasn't a Mentat
"I'll never be a Mentat." he said. "I'm something else ... a freak."
though it seems that he has something greater then Mentat abilities.

So to begin...
Wouldn’t the Bene Teilaxu KH have to be a clone of Paul.


No. The BT are master geneticists. People put too much emphasis on the BT KH, in my opinion. He was merely an experiment to see how a being of a pure essence would react to being forced to become his opposite. Their KH killed himself. This was all in order to find a way to defeat Paul.

I always thought that before Paul became emperor the only people that knew about the KH where the BG (those that had been exposed to the Missionaria Protectiva had prophecies but no real concept). So if the Teilaxu, having no previous knowledge of the genetic profile of the KH were to create one they would go to the source i.e. Paul. Since being the KH is based on genetics, cloning Paul is the simplest solution (especially since this is before the discovery that they could ‘reawaken’ a clone/ghola, and hence wouldn’t imagine any potential problems arising from such).


The BT mention of their KH comes in DM, after Paul has been emperor for twelve years. We don't know how long the cabal has been going. If I'm not mistaken, Princess Irulan goes through all Paul's attributes in the begining of their meeting in DM. There is no reason to assume the BG haven't told the BT about the KH in order to give them the information needed to help them defeat Paul.

However with a KH that is a ghola/clone once they awakened their prescient abilities/awaken their other memory the memories of their past life must also return. This allows for how the Teilaxu discovered that the past memories can be awakened, they then send Duncan to see if normal people (people that aren’t a KH) can have their past memory awaked. Add to this that they would have no other way (aside from a clone of Paul) to ‘create’ a KH – the BG themselves had many failed attempts.


There is no evidence to support that the BT KH had prescience or OM. It was only said that he was a being of pure essence.

As for the KH in general - which as I see it needs to have prescience and OM to be considered such.
Those with OM: Bene Gesserit (female only), Paul, Alia, Leto II, Ghanima, all other pre-born/abominations, (Teilaxu KH – maybe – not enough information given – clone of Paul? Would have OM).


Everyone has OM, the trick is accessing it.

Those with prescience: Guild (Limited – due to huge consumption of spice), Fremen (Due to huge intake of spice/water of life ceremony – collectively ignored - limited), Paul, Alia (eventually failed - around the time Paul walked into the desert),


Only a male can be the KH.

Leto II, Teilaxu KH (clone of Paul? – killed himself), (also? the dwarf/master from DM), Odrae (very limited – due to Atreides heritage), Miles Teg (only sees one path and only about three minutes in the future – independent of spice).


How do you think Teg lived to be 296? Anyway... you left out Ghanima.

“Yet there’s a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot—into both feminine and masculine pasts.”
“Your Kwisatz Haderach?”
“Yes, the one who can be in many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. ....”

I take this to mean that obtaining male and female OM from the drug is almost like the litmus test for the KH. An acid turns blue litmus red but that is only one property of an acid, but only and acid will turn blue litmus red. So the KH will gain male and female OM through taking the drug but that is not what a KH is only a way of recognising the KH. It also means only those with male and female OM and prescience (Pauls predictive dreams were an indicator of being a KH) can be a KH.
Potential KH: Paul, Alia, Leto II, (also Teilaxu KH – maybe – not useful so much due to lack of information).


Obtaining male and female OM is PRECISELY what the KH is.

Implied in this quote and throughout the series is also that the KH must be male, possibly due to the fact that all prescience from a female appears very limited (Alia – only one to lose their ability (Paul? Though in CoD he can see the present, so doesn’t seem to have lost the ability as implied by Leto II and sort of at the end of DM) Odrae – only in very vague/limited dreams/instinct).
Possibly this has to do with how the spice works on males and females. Female: gives them OM (female) i.e. look to the past. Male: gives them prescience i.e. look to the future. It is implied that enough spice will give you visions though whether they are of the past of future (present?) is undefined.


No, it has to do with male ancestral personas being dominant and malignant and possessing their host (in the case of females).

This indicates that the Guild is the male version of the BG. This is backed up by the concept that guildsmen are absolutely saturated in spice and presumably would be able to take spice essence (one of the three drugs that create a reverend mother) without dying i.e. they could take the drug mentioned in the quote and survive and not be the KH (just like reverend mothers can take it and are not reverend mothers)


Kind of, I've always seen prescience and OM as opposite sides of the same coin.

(On a tangent - The Guild can’t (is highly unlikely) to have male OM 1. There is no indication what-so-ever of them having such, but then again Frank Herbert doesn’t spell things out – so 2. If they did have OM their behaviour as an organisation would be different i.e. they would know the end point of their parasitic existence and male OM would never stand it – all those dictators and conquerors.)


As I said, everyone has OM.

Though In CoD Leto II says that if he fails that Ghanima would/must take up the golden path, which means either that part of GP didn’t need a KH to implement or Ghanima could become a KH even though female.
So now potential KH are narrowed down to Paul and Leto II (and Teilaxu KH).


The KH was a goal of the BG, not a requirement for the GP.

Thirdly this quote implies that to be the KH, OM must be gained through the drug. So Leto II who was pre-born and had OM before he took the drug by the BGs own reckoning wouldn’t be considered a KH.


Leto's preborn condition was due to Chani's high spice content Fremen fertility diet which was an attempt to counteract Irulan's secretly administered contraceptive... close enough, obviously. Leto's "worm trip" administered by Namri and Gurney forced him to integrate all his memory personas.

Leaving only Paul (and the Teilaxu KH which is most likely a clone of Paul) as the only one(s) that fit all the definitions of being a KH. Paul himself is the only one that is known to actually achieve what is stated in the quote as what a KH is.


So, is Jessica not a Reverend Mother because she didn't do it exactly the way the BG prescribe?

It also is interesting how the reverend mother begins “It is said...” implying that someone separate to the BG originally said what follows after, if it arose from within the BG wouldn’t she have said “We say...” rather than “It is said...”. Which brings up the question of who actually said it, and where the idea of the KH came from originally as it is implied that Paul is the first. Hence a random KH alive at the time gave the BG the idea and if it was that close it wouldn’t take generations to breed.
But then again if a voice was to speak to them from within the part that terrorises them the BG would likely listen i.e. what if it was the KH who said it originally –if OM can speak into his mind why can’t he do it to theirs (Alia does it). Since it can be taken that to ‘be in many places at once’ can mean many places in time past/present/future.


It means both male and female ancestries. Is it unreasonable to assume that a sisterhood could only see into feminine pasts would desire to create a being who can see the male pasts as well? They know the power this gives them and would appreciate the additional power having a complete picture of the past would provide.

Paul himself has an inability to distinguish the three e.g. before he takes the sand/worm rider test he takes time to reorient himself in the present and when he takes the water of life he claims to see the present and that it only took a few seconds yet it was a number of weeks, therefore he must have began to see the ‘present’ at the instant he woke up and so initially he saw the future and was unaware of the fact i.e. he saw everything as the ‘present’ and couldn’t distinguish the future (and past) from it – it was all one to him.


Tell me, when does the past end and the future start? Now? Now? Now?


Now?


There is no Time, things just move.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Jul 2010 19:42

I think Freak covered it all.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jul 2010 20:22

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I think Freak covered it all.


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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 26 Jul 2010 01:13

No. The BT are master geneticists. People put too much emphasis on the BT KH, in my opinion. He was merely an experiment to see how a being of a pure essence would react to being forced to become his opposite. Their KH killed himself. This was all in order to find a way to defeat Paul.

Even if they are master geneticists they can't create something out of nothing. So if all they knew about the KH was that it was based on genetics and Paul was one they would need a starting point to begin their analysis. Hence they go get some KH DNA from Paul. Now if they wanted to tease out the KHness from the DNA the would then use Pual's DNA as a base and then 'knock out' certain genes, do this over and over again untill they found the set of genes that when put into another persons genome meant they had KH abilities. It does seem like they were doing this considering the dwarf/master in DM. Though if they just wanted a KH the simplest and fastest solution is just to clone Paul. Investigating something that has power based solely on its genetic code would have been of huge interest to the BT.
The BT mention of their KH comes in DM, after Paul has been emperor for twelve years. We don't know how long the cabal has been going. If I'm not mistaken, Princess Irulan goes through all Paul's attributes in the begining of their meeting in DM. There is no reason to assume the BG haven't told the BT about the KH in order to give them the information needed to help them defeat Paul.
I would assume that the BG were still being their secretive self and told the BT as little as possible. I am saying that if the BT wanted to investigate a KH all they would need would be a KH genome which at this stage is Paul. Cloning Paul doesn't mean they were trying to find his weakness, Paul like any person is formed by his experience, like the Duncans aren't really Duncan untill they're awakened, so an un-awakend clone of Paul would only be a KH not Paul. Hence it would only 'tell' them information about a KH not anything about Paul's personality or behaviour (as seperate from his behaviour/personality which is due to him being a KH).
There is no evidence to support that the BT KH had prescience or OM. It was only said that he was a being of pure essence.

To be called a KH it must either show evidence of prescience/OM (I believe both are needed to be defined as a KH but it would at least have to show evidence of one or the other) or alternatively would be a clone or ghola of a known KH since being a KH is based solely on genetics. This is unless of course they figured out exactly what genes constituted a KH, which seems unlikely as it would be a problem far more complex than synthesising spice (which they were probably also working on, if they succeded they would essentially be able to print their own money). Something which they only acheived after clues from Leto II which I always considered the reason for them calling him the prophet (they call genetics the language of god and claim he gave it to them). I though it was implied that it was because it had prescience that it killed itself.
My point ws more about the idea that if you gave a unawakened ghola/clone some spice essence/water of life/whatever drug the BGs use (though they do use spice essence) to someome who either had the training (BG) or genetics (KH) during which they would gain OM, it seems logical that they would also gain back the memories of their past life as an extension of that. I was thinking that the BT would test to see that whatever thay had grown was a KH and the easiest way I can see to do that would be to give it spice essence/water of life/whatever drug the BGs use and see if it survived.
Everyone has OM, the trick is accessing it.
I should have said those who are conscious of their OM.
Only a male can be the KH.
I made that point later (or tried to).
you left out Ghanima.
I could have included her as a maybe - I don't recall her ever taking the drug or showing evidence of visions outside of Paul as OM. She could have had the potential but I don't know that it was ever tested and she had no reason to try.
Obtaining male and female OM is PRECISELY what the KH is.
If thats all it is why does everyone in the dune universe associates it with prescience (and OM). It maybe what the BG wanted but it is not what the KH is. Remember Teg doesn't tell the BG about his ability to see no-ships or his prescience saying they will think him a potential KH (and potentially kill him because of it), he has no access to OM though.
No, it has to do with male ancestral personas being dominant and malignant and possessing their host (in the case of females).
Sorry your wrong. Ghanima as male and female OM and doesn't become possessed, she in fact discovers a way to avoid possession - namely gaining her own personality seperate to OM and having a benelovent ancestor protect her. Leto on the other hand becomes possessed at least in part by the pharoah. Being posessed is a danger for all the pre-born as they cannot fully seperate themselve from OM. It seems to me like they are almost part of OM themselves.
(On a tangent - The Guild can’t (is highly unlikely) to have male OM 1. There is no indication what-so-ever of them having such, but then again Frank Herbert doesn’t spell things out – so 2. If they did have OM their behaviour as an organisation would be different i.e. they would know the end point of their parasitic existence and male OM would never stand it – all those dictators and conquerors.)


As I said, everyone has OM.
But if they were consciously aware of it their behaviour would be different, more long term like the BG - not merely trying to survive. My point was more trying to make sense of the idea that nobody has purely male OM which is what I would consider to be 'male BG' so possibly the 'male BG' have the future (prescience)(or 'the taker') like the BG have the past (OM) (or 'the giver'), a KH is in between the two/both (cannot take without giving and cannot give without taking).
The KH was a goal of the BG,
True.
not a requirement for the GP.
A KH must be required to put humanity on the GP. Paul thinks how something he did caused the death of Duncan. I see the ability of the KH to shift the whole universe down different paths - others can't do this, Teg for instance only sees one possibility, Odrae senses the proximity of danger, essentially sensing the present situation. Incidentaly I think Alias ability is due to he proximity/closeness to Paul not due to her own ability.
Leto's preborn condition was due to Chani's high spice content Fremen fertility diet which was an attempt to counteract Irulan's secretly administered contraceptive... close enough, obviously. Leto's "worm trip" administered by Namri and Gurney forced him to integrate all his memory personas.
I see what your saying, that he had taken the 'drug' while still in the womb. I have two main problems with this: 1.Chani never took enough spice to become a reverend mother, if she had taken spice essence maybe but she didn't. 2. Both Leto and Ghani are afraid of taking the 'drug' thinking it will lead to possession like it did with Alia and Leto himself distinguishes the two if it had already happened it the womb why would he do so. (Sorry if I didn't get what you were trying to say here.) I'm not convinced that the high intake of spice is the reason they were pre-born but more how those around them and they themselves justify their situation. It could be that the high spice diet coupled with their genetics meant they were pre-born. It can't be the diet itself otherwise I doubt it would be recommended as every child born through that fertility treatment would be pre-born and while the fremen didn't kill the pre-born out right I doubt they encouraged them (considering failing the trial of possession meant death) and they wouldn't use a treatment that invariably caused such children. To me a heavy intake of spice just doesn't quite seem enough to justify them being pre-born. (sorry that got kind of long and off topic.)
So, is Jessica not a Reverend Mother because she didn't do it exactly the way the BG prescribe?
No, I was just saying that according to that definition you would only call Paul a KH. The BG themeselves don't prescribe to this in the book as they also call Leto a KH. It could be taken that someone pre-born cannot be a KH, but then again the BG still call leto a KH. It is probably more if they fulfil the reqirements rather then how they got their that defines a KH.
It means both male and female ancestries. Is it unreasonable to assume that a sisterhood could only see into feminine pasts would desire to create a being who can see the male pasts as well? They know the power this gives them and would appreciate the additional power having a complete picture of the past would provide.
My point was more about the laguage use in the quote implying an external source. And no it is not unreasonable, though if the BG had come up with the idea themselves wouldn't they assume they would have only male OM just like the BG only has female. They are also assuming they know what would befound in the part that terrorizes them, a part which they can never see and therfore have no way of knowing. So I was thinking it would make sense if someone i.e. the KH had told them they woud be in his OM after all.
Tell me, when does the past end and the future start? Now? Now? Now?


Now?


There is no Time, things just move.
That may very well be true, it may just be a constraint needed to make sense of the universe like the gravitational consant. But we still generally define the past as what has been, the present as what is happening now and the future as what will happen. We can easily distinguish this, my point is Paul a KH can't the past, present and future may all very well be percieved the same to him, hence he has trouble establishing himself in the present that he currently physically exists in.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jul 2010 07:46

Ayat wrote:
No. The BT are master geneticists. People put too much emphasis on the BT KH, in my opinion. He was merely an experiment to see how a being of a pure essence would react to being forced to become his opposite. Their KH killed himself. This was all in order to find a way to defeat Paul.

Even if they are master geneticists they can't create something out of nothing. So if all they knew about the KH was that it was based on genetics and Paul was one they would need a starting point to begin their analysis. Hence they go get some KH DNA from Paul. Now if they wanted to tease out the KHness from the DNA the would then use Pual's DNA as a base and then 'knock out' certain genes, do this over and over again untill they found the set of genes that when put into another persons genome meant they had KH abilities. It does seem like they were doing this considering the dwarf/master in DM. Though if they just wanted a KH the simplest and fastest solution is just to clone Paul. Investigating something that has power based solely on its genetic code would have been of huge interest to the BT.


If I remember correctly, the BG are continually tempted by the BT to take shortcuts through genetic engineering and they are even offered the possibility of eliminating the need for men alltogether.

The BT mention of their KH comes in DM, after Paul has been emperor for twelve years. We don't know how long the cabal has been going. If I'm not mistaken, Princess Irulan goes through all Paul's attributes in the begining of their meeting in DM. There is no reason to assume the BG haven't told the BT about the KH in order to give them the information needed to help them defeat Paul.
I would assume that the BG were still being their secretive self and told the BT as little as possible. I am saying that if the BT wanted to investigate a KH all they would need would be a KH genome which at this stage is Paul. Cloning Paul doesn't mean they were trying to find his weakness, Paul like any person is formed by his experience, like the Duncans aren't really Duncan untill they're awakened, so an un-awakend clone of Paul would only be a KH not Paul. Hence it would only 'tell' them information about a KH not anything about Paul's personality or behaviour (as seperate from his behaviour/personality which is due to him being a KH).


Like I said, Irulan pretty much tells all in their meeting, they weren't being that secretive.

There is no evidence to support that the BT KH had prescience or OM. It was only said that he was a being of pure essence.

To be called a KH it must either show evidence of prescience/OM (I believe both are needed to be defined as a KH but it would at least have to show evidence of one or the other) or alternatively would be a clone or ghola of a known KH since being a KH is based solely on genetics. This is unless of course they figured out exactly what genes constituted a KH, which seems unlikely as it would be a problem far more complex than synthesising spice (which they were probably also working on, if they succeded they would essentially be able to print their own money). Something which they only acheived after clues from Leto II which I always considered the reason for them calling him the prophet (they call genetics the language of god and claim he gave it to them). I though it was implied that it was because it had prescience that it killed itself.
My point ws more about the idea that if you gave a unawakened ghola/clone some spice essence/water of life/whatever drug the BGs use (though they do use spice essence) to someome who either had the training (BG) or genetics (KH) during which they would gain OM, it seems logical that they would also gain back the memories of their past life as an extension of that. I was thinking that the BT would test to see that whatever thay had grown was a KH and the easiest way I can see to do that would be to give it spice essence/water of life/whatever drug the BGs use and see if it survived.


I believe prescience is a natural result of mentat abilities combined with male and female OM. Besides, KH is a strictly BG term and I think you're reading way too much into this.

Obtaining male and female OM is PRECISELY what the KH is.
If thats all it is why does everyone in the dune universe associates it with prescience (and OM). It maybe what the BG wanted but it is not what the KH is. Remember Teg doesn't tell the BG about his ability to see no-ships or his prescience saying they will think him a potential KH (and potentially kill him because of it), he has no access to OM though.


The BG expected some prescience in the KH but not, I don't think, to the extent of what they got in Paul. See the Dune Appendix, Report on BG Motives and Purposes.

No, it has to do with male ancestral personas being dominant and malignant and possessing their host (in the case of females).
Sorry your wrong. Ghanima as male and female OM and doesn't become possessed, she in fact discovers a way to avoid possession - namely gaining her own personality seperate to OM and having a benelovent ancestor protect her. Leto on the other hand becomes possessed at least in part by the pharoah. Being posessed is a danger for all the pre-born as they cannot fully seperate themselve from OM. It seems to me like they are almost part of OM themselves.


Ghanima also gives up access to her OM.

Leto's preborn condition was due to Chani's high spice content Fremen fertility diet which was an attempt to counteract Irulan's secretly administered contraceptive... close enough, obviously. Leto's "worm trip" administered by Namri and Gurney forced him to integrate all his memory personas.
I see what your saying, that he had taken the 'drug' while still in the womb. I have two main problems with this: 1.Chani never took enough spice to become a reverend mother, if she had taken spice essence maybe but she didn't. 2. Both Leto and Ghani are afraid of taking the 'drug' thinking it will lead to possession like it did with Alia and Leto himself distinguishes the two if it had already happened it the womb why would he do so. (Sorry if I didn't get what you were trying to say here.) I'm not convinced that the high intake of spice is the reason they were pre-born but more how those around them and they themselves justify their situation. It could be that the high spice diet coupled with their genetics meant they were pre-born. It can't be the diet itself otherwise I doubt it would be recommended as every child born through that fertility treatment would be pre-born and while the fremen didn't kill the pre-born out right I doubt they encouraged them (considering failing the trial of possession meant death) and they wouldn't use a treatment that invariably caused such children. To me a heavy intake of spice just doesn't quite seem enough to justify them being pre-born. (sorry that got kind of long and off topic.)


As I said, it was a combination of the fertility diet AND the contraceptive.

So, is Jessica not a Reverend Mother because she didn't do it exactly the way the BG prescribe?
No, I was just saying that according to that definition you would only call Paul a KH. The BG themeselves don't prescribe to this in the book as they also call Leto a KH. It could be taken that someone pre-born cannot be a KH, but then again the BG still call leto a KH. It is probably more if they fulfil the reqirements rather then how they got their that defines a KH.


KWISATZ HADERACH: "Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene
Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene
Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time.


It means both male and female ancestries. Is it unreasonable to assume that a sisterhood could only see into feminine pasts would desire to create a being who can see the male pasts as well? They know the power this gives them and would appreciate the additional power having a complete picture of the past would provide.
My point was more about the laguage use in the quote implying an external source. And no it is not unreasonable, though if the BG had come up with the idea themselves wouldn't they assume they would have only male OM just like the BG only has female. They are also assuming they know what would befound in the part that terrorizes them, a part which they can never see and therfore have no way of knowing. So I was thinking it would make sense if someone i.e. the KH had told them they woud be in his OM after all.


They can but they don't.

Tell me, when does the past end and the future start? Now? Now? Now?


Now?


There is no Time, things just move.
That may very well be true, it may just be a constraint needed to make sense of the universe like the gravitational consant. But we still generally define the past as what has been, the present as what is happening now and the future as what will happen. We can easily distinguish this, my point is Paul a KH can't the past, present and future may all very well be percieved the same to him, hence he has trouble establishing himself in the present that he currently physically exists in.


Of course.
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