KWISATZ HADERACH

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merkin muffley
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 09:19

Sorry, I was distracted by this picture.

insidiom wrote:Image


3=====D


She also played the "D-Girl" in that Sopranos episode. It'd be pretty slick to cast her as Jessica, the secret Harkonnen, as she's a redhead. (EDIT: says Captain Obvious)
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Hunchback Jack » 08 Jun 2010 09:20

DragEgusku wrote:I do not understand a thing about the Kwisatz Haderach. If you could create a KH tleilaxu as Scytale said, would prevent nature to do the same?


Well, *theoretically* a KH could evolve naturally, but it would take much, much longer than a KH born from the BG breeding program.

Given that the BG breeding program took centuries (read: generations) of directed gene manipulation, a naturally-evolving KH would take orders of magnitude longer through random mutations. And only then if each successive mutation on the way to "KH-ness" yielded a survival advantage that outweighed the cost of the mutation.

So if a naturally-occuring KH were possible, I don't think it would emerge within the same timeframe as the BG were able to achieve with their breeding program.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Tleszer » 08 Jun 2010 09:44

That could have been an interesting plot point in the real Dune 7, especially since the Golden Path was set up in part to counter another KH-like being. And it wouldn't necessarily be far fetched considering Scytale's talk of KHs to the fellow co-conspirators:

Frank Herbert, in Dune Messiah wrote:"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."

"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.

"Not one of ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


Of course, what role such a KH would play I have no idea.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 10:04

Tleszer wrote:That could have been an interesting plot point in the real Dune 7, especially since the Golden Path was set up in part to counter another KH-like being. And it wouldn't necessarily be far fetched considering Scytale's talk of KHs to the fellow co-conspirators:

Frank Herbert, in Dune Messiah wrote:"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."

"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.

"Not one of ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


Of course, what role such a KH would play I have no idea.



That would be an interesting subject, I've always been intrigued by that part of Dune Messiah. The idea that Baron Harkonnen was somehow engineered bothers me, though. The more I think about the idea that the Baron was created by humans, but not even the Tleilaxu, the more I dislike the idea. :? I really like Dune Messiah, but there are some weird things in it.

A "naturally-occurring" KH could be really interesting in a story, but KJA and BH must never get their hands on it. I haven't read their version of Dune 7, but my understanding is that there are gholas of the original characters popping up all over the place. If KJA tried to write about Kwisatz Haderachs it would end up like a crap version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Maybe one day this Image will happen and they'll bring in a real writer to deal with that subject.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 08 Jun 2010 14:39

I don't think the Baron was ever implied to be a Tleilaxu creation, but in Dune he was if not the ultimate super being at least the epitome of evil.
So when someone mentions "pure evil" in conversation, it would only be natural his name would come up, especially from someone such as Irulan who would know more about the Baron's tastes than the average Duniverse punter.

mm wrote:The more I think about the idea that the Baron was created by humans, but not even the Tleilaxu


so at least from my pov you don't need to worry about that :)
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 15:02

lotek wrote:I don't think the Baron was ever implied to be a Tleilaxu creation, but in Dune he was if not the ultimate super being at least the epitome of evil.
So when someone mentions "pure evil" in conversation, it would only be natural his name would come up, especially from someone such as Irulan who would know more about the Baron's tastes than the average Duniverse punter.



Frank Herbert, in Dune Messiah wrote wrote::
"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."

"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.

"Not one of ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."



To me, they're talking about Tleilaxu creations. Scytale says that the Baron was "Not one of ours." Maybe I'm getting thrown off by that line, because to me it implies that the Baron was created by someone else.

I want to understand this if I've misread it:
Is Irulan being facetious when she asks that question?
If Scytale means that the Baron isn't a creation of the Tleilaxu, why does he say "Not one of ours." In that context, the line "Not one of ours" suggests that the Baron was the creation of someone else. He doesn't mean that the Baron is a product of the breeding program(?)
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Serkanner » 08 Jun 2010 15:18

merkin muffley wrote:
lotek wrote:I don't think the Baron was ever implied to be a Tleilaxu creation, but in Dune he was if not the ultimate super being at least the epitome of evil.
So when someone mentions "pure evil" in conversation, it would only be natural his name would come up, especially from someone such as Irulan who would know more about the Baron's tastes than the average Duniverse punter.



Frank Herbert, in Dune Messiah wrote wrote::
"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."

"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.

"Not one of ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."



To me, they're talking about Tleilaxu creations. Scytale says that the Baron was "Not one of ours." Maybe I'm getting thrown off by that line, because to me it implies that the Baron was created by someone else.

I want to understand this if I've misread it:
Is Irulan being facetious when she asks that question?
If Scytale means that the Baron isn't a creation of the Tleilaxu, why does he say "Not one of ours." In that context, the line "Not one of ours" suggests that the Baron was the creation of someone else. He doesn't mean that the Baron is a product of the breeding program(?)


The Baron IS a product of the breeding program as far as I see it. Only two ( three according to the BG ) generations away from the KH he is the result of 87(?) generations of planned breeding. I feel that Scytale is accusing the BG of "creating" the Baron; especially considering who he is talking to.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby TheDukester » 08 Jun 2010 15:23

Serkanner wrote:I feel that Scytale is accusing the BG of "creating" the Baron; especially considering who he is talking to.

My thoughts, too, although it's been a while since I've read the passage carefully.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 15:26

Serkanner wrote:The Baron IS a product of the breeding program as far as I see it. Only two ( three according to the BG ) generations away from the KH he is the result of 87(?) generations of planned breeding. I feel that Scytale is accusing the BG of "creating" the Baron; especially considering who he is talking to.


I definitely agree that the Baron is a product of the BG breeding program. I'm unclear about whether or not Scytale is referring to the breeding program in that conversation. It makes sense, if that's what Scytale means, but I would have expected FH to have Mohiam react, or to give us more to make it clear that Scytale is referring to the breeding program.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Serkanner » 08 Jun 2010 15:34

merkin muffley wrote:
Serkanner wrote:The Baron IS a product of the breeding program as far as I see it. Only two ( three according to the BG ) generations away from the KH he is the result of 87(?) generations of planned breeding. I feel that Scytale is accusing the BG of "creating" the Baron; especially considering who he is talking to.


I definitely agree that the Baron is a product of the BG breeding program. I'm unclear about whether or not Scytale is referring to the breeding program in that conversation. It makes sense, if that's what Scytale means, but I would have expected FH to have Mohiam react, or to give us more to make it clear that Scytale is referring to the breeding program.


Homework for tomorrow: re-read the passage. It is way to long ago since I have read it. Interesting topic though.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 08 Jun 2010 16:04

you know what i was so focused on the BT creating or not the Baron that I completely forgot that good old Vladimir is Paul's grandfather (at least until KJABH try to say otherwise).
Another reason to love Dune and discussing it with people who like it like I do!

It does shed a completely different light on that line from Scytale,
Not one of ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them.

A direct jab to the BG chin and a good one!
Basically taking the mick out of the breeding plan and its failure, reminding them where the fault lies that they meet as conspirators.

But are we talking KHs here or just an experimentation with the human nature?
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Tleszer » 08 Jun 2010 17:33

Sorry everyone. In my haste to insert that quote I accidentally left out a line that Scytale says. I knew I should have used the PDFs rather than the novel for this. :doh:

"Not one of ours," Scytale said. "But then nature often produces creations as deadly as ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


I've bolded the section I left out. And, of course, it's the bold section that I actually wanted to include since we were on the topic of a naturally-occurring KH.

Perhaps there's a jab at Mohiam and the BG, but I don't think that's necessarily what Scytale was implying, since there's no reaction from her.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 08 Jun 2010 18:36

Tleszer wrote:Sorry everyone. In my haste to insert that quote I accidentally left out a line that Scytale says. I knew I should have used the PDFs rather than the novel for this. :doh:

"Not one of ours," Scytale said. "But then nature often produces creations as deadly as ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


I've bolded the section I left out. And, of course, it's the bold section that I actually wanted to include since we were on the topic of a naturally-occurring KH.

Perhaps there's a jab at Mohiam and the BG, but I don't think that's necessarily what Scytale was implying, since there's no reaction from her.


yes definitely; got it all wrong didn't I? :lol:
well it was your fault mr blue and green(wouldn't that make it turquoise?), but even more mine for not doing proper checks before embarking on some crazy theory :)

So now I'll reread that chapter and try to make sense out of all this, since now I am confused as to what kind of "creations" Scytale is talking about; just extreme in good/evil or specifically a wild KH.

So for now good night or whatever passes for it in your timezone!
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby lotek » 08 Jun 2010 18:39

Serkanner wrote: Homework for tomorrow: re-read the passage. It is way to long ago since I have read it. Interesting topic though.


should have taken that sound advice :whistle:
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 22:20

Tleszer wrote:"Not one of ours," Scytale said. "But then nature often produces creations as deadly as ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


Ahhhhhh...

So I guess when I said...

merkin muffley wrote:I've always been intrigued by that part of Dune Messiah.


...I was talking out of my buttocks a little bit. :doh:

I still can't find my copy of Dune Messiah, and at this point I'm about to just buy another one. :oops: I keep getting myself into trouble.

Still very interesting, though. Always been fascinated by the politics in that book.


EDIT: redundancy
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jun 2010 22:44

merkin muffley wrote:I still can't find my copy of Dune Messiah, and at this point I'm about to just buy another one. :oops: I keep getting myself into trouble.


You know there are PDFs available, right? :wink:
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 22:46

Freakzilla wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:I still can't find my copy of Dune Messiah, and at this point I'm about to just buy another one. :oops: I keep getting myself into trouble.


You know there are PDFs available, right? :wink:


Internets? What is this internet you speak of?
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 08 Jun 2010 22:49

(One point about Mohiam not responding, if the Scytale comment was a jibe at the BG, is that Edric breaks in whining immediately after Scytale says that. ;) )

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jun 2010 22:58

merkin muffley wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:I still can't find my copy of Dune Messiah, and at this point I'm about to just buy another one. :oops: I keep getting myself into trouble.


You know there are PDFs available, right? :wink:


Internets? What is this internet you speak of?


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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 23:38

Freakzilla wrote:Hey, if you don't want them I won't push them on you.

Print is dead.
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Downloading it now.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby DragEgusku » 10 Jun 2010 09:53

So the nature may produce a Kwisatz Haderach, if a tleilaxu (who are experts in genetic manipulations) recognizes that nature can achieve the same results as tleilaxu. That was my idea.

It is interesting that the discussion, said Scytale tleilaxu managed to create a Kwisatz Haderach.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby MrFlibble » 10 Jun 2010 12:19

DragEgusku wrote:So the nature may produce a Kwisatz Haderach

Hmm, this seems correct. That which the Bene Gesserit hoped to achieve by selective breeding could also occur by chance... but the probability of this happening would be close to zero I suppose.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Jun 2010 12:22

MrFlibble wrote:
DragEgusku wrote:So the nature may produce a Kwisatz Haderach

Hmm, this seems correct. That which the Bene Gesserit hoped to achieve by selective breeding could also occur by chance... but the probability of this happening would be close to zero I suppose.


Exactly, given the extremeness of the KH's abilities, I think it would be more likely to evolve laser shooting sharkheads for hands.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby TheDukester » 10 Jun 2010 12:32

:lol:

That would be awesome!

(Oh, shit ... one of TheJacket's spies is going to forward that idea to him ...)
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jun 2010 13:18

A natural KH would be impotent without being born into a position of some power.
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