KWISATZ HADERACH

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    One of the two remaining Great Schools tasked with mentoring humanity

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Jul 2010 21:03

I'm not going to respond to all of that, Freak again has taken care of it, but I will add to the fact that a KH does NOT imply prescience. The KH was simply a male who could pass through the agony and access male OM, which the female BG wouldn't go near. Paul's prescience was an unforseen extra ability, which is why he says that he is not their KH, he is something else (though the term KH is used for the rest of the series to mean someone like him).
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 26 Jul 2010 23:01

Freakzilla wrote:I believe prescience is a natural result of mentat abilities combined with male and female OM.

Again lodging pro-forma dissent on this point! :P

I'll never understand how Mentat/human-computer-organized encyclopedic knowledge of the past is supposed to give the prescient anything more than probabilities regarding the future conduct of human beings, or any information at all regarding novel future events. Exhibit for the prosecution: Paul flying a 'thopter after his blinding by the stone burner.

Also, was Mohiam a Mentat? Or Alia or Odrade? And they had access only to their female-line (ancestral and any Shared) OM. But yet all exhibited limited prescience.

Just saying... :shifty:

(None of which, by the way, supports any of Ayat's suppositions, that I can see at the moment.)

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jul 2010 08:35

Appendix III: Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes

They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the
prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. Now, attend these facts
carefully:
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Jul 2010 09:52

Bah, I missed that, I was sure that the prescience was unexpected.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jul 2010 10:10

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Bah, I missed that, I was sure that the prescience was unexpected.


"...Some of the prescient abilities found in Guild navigators..." makes it sound as if they didn't expect him to be even as powerfull as a Navigator, I don't think it was a primary concern.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Jul 2010 10:51

Gotcha. That makes me feel better, thought I'd biffed a key point.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jul 2010 12:10

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I believe prescience is a natural result of mentat abilities combined with male and female OM.

Again lodging pro-forma dissent on this point! :P


There you go, making me look up phrases in dead languages again. :roll: :wink:

I'll never understand how Mentat/human-computer-organized encyclopedic knowledge of the past is supposed to give the prescient anything more than probabilities regarding the future conduct of human beings, or any information at all regarding novel future events. Exhibit for the prosecution: Paul flying a 'thopter after his blinding by the stone burner.


I think they are just probablilites but he sees them all. Don't forget we're throwing in spice, too, for just a bit of "magic".

I got the idea from the "Uncertainty Principle". If you knew the exact position and movement of every particle in a system, you could play it forward and backwards to read/predict the future/past. Paul somehow knows both measurements or at least their probabilites and makes projections. A quantum prescience, if you will.

It's the only way I can make sense of it other than, "a wizard did it." I'm sorry it's not perfect.

Also, was Mohiam a Mentat? Or Alia or Odrade? And they had access only to their female-line (ancestral and any Shared) OM. But yet all exhibited limited prescience.


Paul had natural prescience before the WoL and OM. Alia comes from the same potential gene combination as Paul, she's bred for it. Odrade is descended from Ghanima, a twin of Leto II, it was bred into her, too. Anyway, some people have a limited natural prescience.


Just saying... :shifty:

(None of which, by the way, supports any of Ayat's suppositions, that I can see at the moment.)


He wants to believe the BT KH was a ghola of Paul and I don't think I can argue him out of it. :|
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Jul 2010 12:17

How would the BT have even known that Paul was the KH? If the BG weren't even sure, and it was their own breeding program, why would the BT know in order to ghola him?

Of course, they could have just been hijacking the program's progess to this point and had been planning to take it further, then realized they already had the KH... but that seems quite a reach IMO.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 27 Jul 2010 21:27

Freakzilla wrote:I got the idea from the "Uncertainty Principle". If you knew the exact position and movement of every particle in a system, you could play it forward and backwards to read/predict the future/past. Paul somehow knows both measurements or at least their probabilites and makes projections. A quantum prescience, if you will.

I won't, I think, thanks all the same. ;) :P :lol:

The problem is you CAN'T know both position and movement (velocity, component vectors). If you determine position, the act of doing so queers the movement data; if you measure the movement, the position goes fuzzy.

Anyway, nothing in the texts has ever made me think that the BT KH was a clone of Paul. (Just like nothing in them ever made me doubt he was born on Caladan. ;) )

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 Jul 2010 10:50

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I got the idea from the "Uncertainty Principle". If you knew the exact position and movement of every particle in a system, you could play it forward and backwards to read/predict the future/past. Paul somehow knows both measurements or at least their probabilites and makes projections. A quantum prescience, if you will.

I won't, I think, thanks all the same. ;) :P :lol:

The problem is you CAN'T know both position and movement (velocity, component vectors). If you determine position, the act of doing so queers the movement data; if you measure the movement, the position goes fuzzy.



I think Freak is well aware of that, he does say "or at least their probabilities". :wink:
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jul 2010 11:09

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I got the idea from the "Uncertainty Principle". If you knew the exact position and movement of every particle in a system, you could play it forward and backwards to read/predict the future/past. Paul somehow knows both measurements or at least their probabilites and makes projections. A quantum prescience, if you will.

I won't, I think, thanks all the same. ;) :P :lol:

The problem is you CAN'T know both position and movement (velocity, component vectors). If you determine position, the act of doing so queers the movement data; if you measure the movement, the position goes fuzzy.



I think Freak is well aware of that, he does say "or at least their probabilities". :wink:


I only look stupid.

:teasing-dunce:
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 31 Jul 2010 07:54

How would the BT have even known that Paul was the KH?

I think it was part of his mythos as emperor.
He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough. "
-from "Arrakis Awakening" by the Princess Irulan

If I remember correctly, the BG are continually tempted by the BT to take shortcuts through genetic engineering and they are even offered the possibility of eliminating the need for men alltogether.
That sounds kind of familiar, I remember something like that in HoD. I personally had the impression that they well possibly being tempted were against any form of 'manipulation' on principle, in DM they were even against artifical insemmination. But thinking about it, doesn't really matter if they knew how to create one of not. Even if they had the capabilities to create a KH, cloning Paul would still be a option as it would be the simplist way - it is easier to take then create/research. Though the idea that that Paul was the BT KH is merely conjecture as all we know is that they created one. I just thought it was an interesting possibility especially considering it may have been how they came up with the concept of gholas being able to regain their orginal memories as there is no genetic basis for it. Though I don't know what they knew about the limits of genetics in the 60s and 70s.
I believe prescience is a natural result of mentat abilities combined with male and female OM. Besides, KH is a strictly BG term and I think you're reading way too much into this.
That's what so good about the dune books, Frank Herbert wrote them intending for them to be read multiple times and I think also for us to think about such things - though I admit it isn't really relevant to the discussion and refrain from going off on unproductive tangents in the future.
Though about prescience being a combination of mentat abilities (though I presumme you mean merely abilities not necesarily a Mentat) and OM, I presume this came from these quotes from Dune and DM
Paul's mind had gone on in its chilling precision. He saw the avenues ahead of them on this hostile planet. Without even the safety valve of dreaming, he focused his prescient awareness, seeing it as a computation of most probable futures, but with something more, an edge of mystery--as though his mind dipped into some timeless stratum and sampled the winds of the future.

Idaho stared at her. He had no particular datum to reinforce an argument based on mentat computation, but he knew. He knew. This thing he'd experienced came very close to the visionary power which Paul had known. Neither Irulan nor Alia would believe it, coming from him.

Though both quotes do distinguish prescience as something more then Mentat computation which in your theory I imagine OM comes in? I would think that all OM would do would give someone would be more information for computation not anything more, though you (any of you) may have though of other ideas.
I think they are just probablilites but he sees them all. Don't forget we're throwing in spice, too, for just a bit of "magic".

I got the idea from the "Uncertainty Principle". If you knew the exact position and movement of every particle in a system, you could play it forward and backwards to read/predict the future/past. Paul somehow knows both measurements or at least their probabilites and makes projections. A quantum prescience, if you will.

It's the only way I can make sense of it other than, "a wizard did it." I'm sorry it's not perfect.
To do this a KH would have to know the whereabouts of every atom in the universe (and presumably all that is happening in the atoms as well). How would he be capeable of this even if he could tell such things around him and also see them through OM, there are places that people would have never been and he would still need to know the positioning of these atoms. Though...
KWISATZ HADERACH: "Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene
Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene
Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time.

if the KH had the abilities this quote say that could all fall under the 'bridging space', but being able to see the future, (present and past) would fall under 'bridging time' so he would see the future without need for this quantum prescience. Though if you can control space it makes you capeable of controling time and visa versa, so if he could 'bridge space' through this (using the quantum prescience theory) he would be able to 'bridge time'.
However none this takes into account the limitations of prescience and prescient sheilding, if quantum prescience were true a KH should be able to see everything including no-ships and the like. While if prescience comes from a KHs ability to 'bridge time' as in - they were able to 'sample the winds of the future' - this allows for limitations. Unlike quantum prescience where they would have to know everything to predict anything beyond their imediate vicinity and if they knew everything they would also see everthing.
In short a KH would need quantum knowledge to predict thing beyond their sphere of influence, though within this they would make do with highly honed mentat abilities though this doesn't explain prescient sheilding (in particular I'm thinking of the dune tarot which clouded the vision) and he would still need the quantum abilities to know the things Paul knows after he loses his eyes.
I personally think that prescience comes from an ability to exist to a certain extent 'outside of time' and thereby can see beyond the present in either direction.
To me prescience as presented in the books - as the ability to see the future in particular with the aid of spice which allows them to bring such things to consciousness- is more beliveable then the theory of quantum prescience. Dune is a science fiction series and as such has things within it they may be immposible in this one I think prescience like gholas getting their memories back is one of these thing these 'unknowns'.
Paul had natural prescience before the WoL and OM. Alia comes from the same potential gene combination as Paul, she's bred for it. Odrade is descended from Ghanima, a twin of Leto II, it was bred into her, too. Anyway, some people have a limited natural prescience.

I may just be being a bit dense but as far as I can see this contradicts your theory and doesn't support it, would you please explain for me what you were trying to say here. And by OM here I presume you mean conscious knowledge of it. Also you forgot about Teg.
Ghanima also gives up access to her OM.

Two quotes form CoD directly contridict this.
Ghanima, absorbing the trigger words, Secher Nbiw, felt the locked-away consciousness flow into her mind. It flowed with a linear nicety, the inner awareness of her mother hovering there behind it, a guardian at a gate. And Ghanima knew in that instant that she had conquered the clamorous past. She possessed a gate through which she could peer when she needed that past. The months of self-hypnotic suppression had built for her a safe place from which to manage her own flesh. She started to turn toward Leto with the need to explain this when she became aware of where she stood and with whom.

In this Leto also talks about himself being possessed.
"Well and good, cousin. She asked me if I were Abomination. I answered in the negative. That was my first treachery. You see, Ghanima escaped this, but I did not. I was forced to balance the inner lives under the pressure of excessive melange. I had to seek the active cooperation of those aroused lives within me. Doing this, I avoided the most malignant and chose a dominant helper thrust upon me by the inner awareness which was my father. I am not, in truth, my father or this helper. Then again, I am not the Second Leto."

As I said, it was a combination of the fertility diet AND the contraceptive.
Sorry I didn't quite pick that up, it makes more sense that why. But as I said (I think) its more of a feeling that I have which comes from being able to believe that they were capeable of being aware from conception which they must have been if it was due to the diet plus the contraceptive. Though thinking about it now even if they couldn't be aware from conception they may have become aware as soon as they were able. Though there is always the possibility that it occured someother way as we did not witness' it as we did Alia's awakening and Leto and Ghani are only aware after what has awakened them has occured. Another reason I think this way is probably because no one in the books seems to me to be completely certain about how it occured. May be I just like the uncertainties, it is the uncertainties and hence the possiblities that are more interesting sometimes then the certainties.
They can but they don't.
I always thought that they could try and look but innate within them was a fear which stopped them getting close (for their own protection may be?). Howerver Jessica does get a glimpse when she shows Paul where it is but it is very hard on her. Though even if they can see into it if they don't look they still cannot know for certain. I think there has to be more than just male OM within that place, I don't think that male OM would fighten the BG so much, I think their must be something else in there which makes them afraid.
She focused on the psychokinesthetic extension of herself, looking within, and was confronted immediately with a cellular core, a pit of blackness from which she recoiled.
That is the place where we cannot look, she thought. There is the place the Reverend Mothers are so reluctant to mention--the place where only a Kwisatz Haderach may look.
In this quote Jessica calls this place a celluar core which doesn't sound like male OM at all though I don't know what it is supposed to be.
Aloud, he said: "You speak of a place where you cannot enter? This place which the Reverend Mother cannot face, show it to me."
She shook her head, terrified by the very thought.
"Show it to me!" he commanded.
"No!"
But she could not escape him. Bludgeoned by the terrible force of him, she closed her eyes and focused inward -- the-direction-that-is-dark.
Paul's consciousness flowed through and around her and into the darkness. She glimpsed the place dimly before her mind blanked itself away from the terror. Without knowing why, her whole being trembled at what she had seen – a region where a wind blew and sparks glared, where rings of light expanded and contracted, where rows of tumescent white shapes flowed over and under and around the lights, driven by darkness and a wind out of nowhere.
Again I don't know what she actually sees but it doesn't seem like male OM. My own theory is that while the place may be linked to male OM it does not in fact contain it but rather contains prescience in some form, with the BG being unable to acess OM merely because they are female and the preborn and KH being special in seeing both.
Also...
"Try your tricks on me, old witch," Paul said. "Where's your gom jabbar? Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You'll find me there staring out at you!"

Male OM may very well reside within the place that terrorizes but I think there must be something else there as well or it maybe something else entirely. Anyway I don't see how male OM on its own would be enough to terrorise them. Though if you only needed the ability to suvive the drug and have accesses to both male and female OM to have prescience (not what I think causes prescience, but a possibility) then maybe it is what they would see through prescience which frightens them.
I suppose this is the place to say that I think Paul is more than the defined KH, I do believe if she had looked she would has seen Paul.
"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."
He only claims the title after fufilling all the requirements by taking the WoL.
Freakzilla wrote:
Just saying... :shifty:

(None of which, by the way, supports any of Ayat's suppositions, that I can see at the moment.)


He wants to believe the BT KH was a ghola of Paul and I don't think I can argue him out of it. :|

Lastly just to add after too much writing:
1. I asure you you're safe disagreeing with Freak doesn't mean you agree with mean and even if you agree with some of my points it doesn't mean you agree with my theories.
2. I mostly want you to accept it as a possibility there isn't enough evidence to prove anything much about the BT KH, open up to possibilities if you take things at face value when reading Dune you miss some of the most interesting ideas I think.
and..
3. I suppose I should say I'm female for honesty's sake, not that it matters and I thought you would assume I was male anyway.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2010 09:08

Ayat wrote:
How would the BT have even known that Paul was the KH?

I think it was part of his mythos as emperor.
He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough. "
-from "Arrakis Awakening" by the Princess Irulan


Coming from Irulan who is not only Paul's wife but a BG.

If I remember correctly, the BG are continually tempted by the BT to take shortcuts through genetic engineering and they are even offered the possibility of eliminating the need for men alltogether.
That sounds kind of familiar, I remember something like that in HoD. I personally had the impression that they well possibly being tempted were against any form of 'manipulation' on principle, in DM they were even against artifical insemmination. But thinking about it, doesn't really matter if they knew how to create one of not. Even if they had the capabilities to create a KH, cloning Paul would still be a option as it would be the simplist way - it is easier to take then create/research. Though the idea that that Paul was the BT KH is merely conjecture as all we know is that they created one. I just thought it was an interesting possibility especially considering it may have been how they came up with the concept of gholas being able to regain their orginal memories as there is no genetic basis for it. Though I don't know what they knew about the limits of genetics in the 60s and 70s.


There were and still are scientist who support cellular genetic memory.

I believe prescience is a natural result of mentat abilities combined with male and female OM. Besides, KH is a strictly BG term and I think you're reading way too much into this.
That's what so good about the dune books, Frank Herbert wrote them intending for them to be read multiple times and I think also for us to think about such things - though I admit it isn't really relevant to the discussion and refrain from going off on unproductive tangents in the future.
Though about prescience being a combination of mentat abilities (though I presumme you mean merely abilities not necesarily a Mentat) and OM, I presume this came from these quotes from Dune and DM
Paul's mind had gone on in its chilling precision. He saw the avenues ahead of them on this hostile planet. Without even the safety valve of dreaming, he focused his prescient awareness, seeing it as a computation of most probable futures, but with something more, an edge of mystery--as though his mind dipped into some timeless stratum and sampled the winds of the future.

Idaho stared at her. He had no particular datum to reinforce an argument based on mentat computation, but he knew. He knew. This thing he'd experienced came very close to the visionary power which Paul had known. Neither Irulan nor Alia would believe it, coming from him.

Though both quotes do distinguish prescience as something more then Mentat computation which in your theory I imagine OM comes in? I would think that all OM would do would give someone would be more information for computation not anything more, though you (any of you) may have though of other ideas.
I think they are just probablilites but he sees them all. Don't forget we're throwing in spice, too, for just a bit of "magic".

I got the idea from the "Uncertainty Principle". If you knew the exact position and movement of every particle in a system, you could play it forward and backwards to read/predict the future/past. Paul somehow knows both measurements or at least their probabilites and makes projections. A quantum prescience, if you will.

It's the only way I can make sense of it other than, "a wizard did it." I'm sorry it's not perfect.
To do this a KH would have to know the whereabouts of every atom in the universe (and presumably all that is happening in the atoms as well).


Didn't I say that?

How would he be capeable of this even if he could tell such things around him and also see them through OM, there are places that people would have never been and he would still need to know the positioning of these atoms. Though...


I said it wasn't perfect. If I knew how he did it, I'd be prescient.

KWISATZ HADERACH: "Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene
Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene
Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time.

if the KH had the abilities this quote say that could all fall under the 'bridging space', but being able to see the future, (present and past) would fall under 'bridging time' so he would see the future without need for this quantum prescience. Though if you can control space it makes you capeable of controling time and visa versa, so if he could 'bridge space' through this (using the quantum prescience theory) he would be able to 'bridge time'.
However none this takes into account the limitations of prescience and prescient sheilding, if quantum prescience were true a KH should be able to see everything including no-ships and the like.


Seeing the future changes it, thus creating the future. It is my theory that the oracle creates a sphere of influence just by predicting it. One oracle is clouded by another's or a no-feild's. It is also my theory that Siona and her descendants are latent prescients and this shields them.

While if prescience comes from a KHs ability to 'bridge time' as in - they were able to 'sample the winds of the future' - this allows for limitations. Unlike quantum prescience where they would have to know everything to predict anything beyond their imediate vicinity and if they knew everything they would also see everthing.
In short a KH would need quantum knowledge to predict thing beyond their sphere of influence, though within this they would make do with highly honed mentat abilities though this doesn't explain prescient sheilding (in particular I'm thinking of the dune tarot which clouded the vision) and he would still need the quantum abilities to know the things Paul knows after he loses his eyes.
I personally think that prescience comes from an ability to exist to a certain extent 'outside of time' and thereby can see beyond the present in either direction.
To me prescience as presented in the books - as the ability to see the future in particular with the aid of spice which allows them to bring such things to consciousness- is more beliveable then the theory of quantum prescience. Dune is a science fiction series and as such has things within it they may be immposible in this one I think prescience like gholas getting their memories back is one of these thing these 'unknowns'.


OK

Paul had natural prescience before the WoL and OM. Alia comes from the same potential gene combination as Paul, she's bred for it. Odrade is descended from Ghanima, a twin of Leto II, it was bred into her, too. Anyway, some people have a limited natural prescience.

I may just be being a bit dense but as far as I can see this contradicts your theory and doesn't support it, would you please explain for me what you were trying to say here. And by OM here I presume you mean conscious knowledge of it. Also you forgot about Teg.


What don't you understand? Teg is a descendant of Ghanima.

Ghanima also gives up access to her OM.

Two quotes form CoD directly contridict this.
Ghanima, absorbing the trigger words, Secher Nbiw, felt the locked-away consciousness flow into her mind. It flowed with a linear nicety, the inner awareness of her mother hovering there behind it, a guardian at a gate. And Ghanima knew in that instant that she had conquered the clamorous past. She possessed a gate through which she could peer when she needed that past. The months of self-hypnotic suppression had built for her a safe place from which to manage her own flesh. She started to turn toward Leto with the need to explain this when she became aware of where she stood and with whom.

In this Leto also talks about himself being possessed.
"Well and good, cousin. She asked me if I were Abomination. I answered in the negative. That was my first treachery. You see, Ghanima escaped this, but I did not. I was forced to balance the inner lives under the pressure of excessive melange. I had to seek the active cooperation of those aroused lives within me. Doing this, I avoided the most malignant and chose a dominant helper thrust upon me by the inner awareness which was my father. I am not, in truth, my father or this helper. Then again, I am not the Second Leto."


I'm pretty sure she totally loses it at some point, I'll look for a quote later. I never said Leto wasn't possessed, I'm not sure what the point of that quote is.

As I said, it was a combination of the fertility diet AND the contraceptive.
Sorry I didn't quite pick that up, it makes more sense that why. But as I said (I think) its more of a feeling that I have which comes from being able to believe that they were capeable of being aware from conception which they must have been if it was due to the diet plus the contraceptive. Though thinking about it now even if they couldn't be aware from conception they may have become aware as soon as they were able. Though there is always the possibility that it occured someother way as we did not witness' it as we did Alia's awakening and Leto and Ghani are only aware after what has awakened them has occured. Another reason I think this way is probably because no one in the books seems to me to be completely certain about how it occured. May be I just like the uncertainties, it is the uncertainties and hence the possiblities that are more interesting sometimes then the certainties.


There has been much discussion about this, even going so far as to suggest that chani was given the WoL by Irulan in an attempt to kill her. I think my explanation is the most direct from what evidence there is in the book.

They can but they don't.
I always thought that they could try and look but innate within them was a fear which stopped them getting close (for their own protection may be?). Howerver Jessica does get a glimpse when she shows Paul where it is but it is very hard on her. Though even if they can see into it if they don't look they still cannot know for certain. I think there has to be more than just male OM within that place, I don't think that male OM would fighten the BG so much, I think their must be something else in there which makes them afraid.
She focused on the psychokinesthetic extension of herself, looking within, and was confronted immediately with a cellular core, a pit of blackness from which she recoiled.
That is the place where we cannot look, she thought. There is the place the Reverend Mothers are so reluctant to mention--the place where only a Kwisatz Haderach may look.
In this quote Jessica calls this place a celluar core which doesn't sound like male OM at all though I don't know what it is supposed to be.
Aloud, he said: "You speak of a place where you cannot enter? This place which the Reverend Mother cannot face, show it to me."
She shook her head, terrified by the very thought.
"Show it to me!" he commanded.
"No!"
But she could not escape him. Bludgeoned by the terrible force of him, she closed her eyes and focused inward -- the-direction-that-is-dark.
Paul's consciousness flowed through and around her and into the darkness. She glimpsed the place dimly before her mind blanked itself away from the terror. Without knowing why, her whole being trembled at what she had seen – a region where a wind blew and sparks glared, where rings of light expanded and contracted, where rows of tumescent white shapes flowed over and under and around the lights, driven by darkness and a wind out of nowhere.
Again I don't know what she actually sees but it doesn't seem like male OM. My own theory is that while the place may be linked to male OM it does not in fact contain it but rather contains prescience in some form, with the BG being unable to acess OM merely because they are female and the preborn and KH being special in seeing both.
Also...
"Try your tricks on me, old witch," Paul said. "Where's your gom jabbar? Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You'll find me there staring out at you!"

Male OM may very well reside within the place that terrorizes but I think there must be something else there as well or it maybe something else entirely. Anyway I don't see how male OM on its own would be enough to terrorise them. Though if you only needed the ability to suvive the drug and have accesses to both male and female OM to have prescience (not what I think causes prescience, but a possibility) then maybe it is what they would see through prescience which frightens them.
I suppose this is the place to say that I think Paul is more than the defined KH, I do believe if she had looked she would has seen Paul.
"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."
He only claims the title after fufilling all the requirements by taking the WoL.


Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Freakzilla wrote:
Just saying... :shifty:

(None of which, by the way, supports any of Ayat's suppositions, that I can see at the moment.)


He wants to believe the BT KH was a ghola of Paul and I don't think I can argue him out of it. :|

Lastly just to add after too much writing:
1. I asure you you're safe disagreeing with Freak doesn't mean you agree with mean and even if you agree with some of my points it doesn't mean you agree with my theories.
2. I mostly want you to accept it as a possibility there isn't enough evidence to prove anything much about the BT KH, open up to possibilities if you take things at face value when reading Dune you miss some of the most interesting ideas I think.
and..
3. I suppose I should say I'm female for honesty's sake, not that it matters and I thought you would assume I was male anyway.


Pix :wink:

(I wish you'd put some spaces between your points or something, it'd make it easier to respond to.)

I'll admit it's possible the BT KH was a clone of Paul, I don't think it's likely.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 31 Jul 2010 12:32

Freak wrote:There were and still are scientist who support cellular genetic memory.

Name some. ;) :P

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2010 12:48

here's one...

Stuart Hameroff, M.D.
Department of Anesthesiology
Arizona Health Sciences Center

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SadisticCynic » 31 Jul 2010 13:33

I didn't know he argued for that. Does he mention it in a particular article?
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 31 Jul 2010 14:32

BULLLLLLSHIIIIT I am not having this argument again! There are scientists that say the US government blew up the Two Towers in New York, scientists that say the world is 6 thousand years old and that there's an ark on top of mount Ararat, I could go on. A scientist can be found to support just about any cracked out idea.

Genetic means DNA, and there is NO memory stored in our DNA as we live our lives.

OM was somewhat reasonable when FH wrote it, now it is outdated - this is what happens with an SF story that is comming up on a half a century in age.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2010 18:47

SadisticCynic wrote:I didn't know he argued for that. Does he mention it in a particular article?


I'm not sure, I saw him on TV talking about it then looked up his site.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2010 18:47

A Thing of Eternity wrote:BULLLLLLSHIIIIT I am not having this argument again! There are scientists that say the US government blew up the Two Towers in New York, scientists that say the world is 6 thousand years old and that there's an ark on top of mount Ararat, I could go on. A scientist can be found to support just about any cracked out idea.

Genetic means DNA, and there is NO memory stored in our DNA as we live our lives.

OM was somewhat reasonable when FH wrote it, now it is outdated - this is what happens with an SF story that is comming up on a half a century in age.


He was saying it was in nerve cells, like FH did, IIRC.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Nekhrun » 31 Jul 2010 19:23

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:BULLLLLLSHIIIIT I am not having this argument again! There are scientists that say the US government blew up the Two Towers in New York, scientists that say the world is 6 thousand years old and that there's an ark on top of mount Ararat, I could go on. A scientist can be found to support just about any cracked out idea.

Genetic means DNA, and there is NO memory stored in our DNA as we live our lives.

OM was somewhat reasonable when FH wrote it, now it is outdated - this is what happens with an SF story that is comming up on a half a century in age.


He was saying it was in nerve cells, like FH did, IIRC.

That's the kind of thing the Today Show or Good Morning America loves. This sounds familiar, like I've seen it on some kind of show like this or on one of the 24 hour news channel fluff pieces.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 31 Jul 2010 20:31

Freakzilla wrote:He was saying it was in nerve cells, like FH did, IIRC.

Any quotes besides the following?
FH in DM wrote: "Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells—and all this after the death of her father.

If OM is "embedded" only in nerve cells, how do you explain the Teg ghola?
FH in CHD wrote: That year he began studying the life of the Bashar Miles Teg, whose cells had started his new life. Odrade had explained some of this to him, holding up her fingernails. "I took tiny scrapings from his neck—cells of his skin and they held all we needed to bring you to life."


As for Hameroff, I see stuff like this...
Science, religion and Orch OR

Deepak Chopra Interview in Washington Post Online

particularly Deepak Chopra's name and I quickly lose interest.

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SadisticCynic » 31 Jul 2010 22:14

Orch OR is pretty solid, it's the other stuff that would worry me.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2010 22:19

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:He was saying it was in nerve cells, like FH did, IIRC.

Any quotes besides the following?
FH in DM wrote: "Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells—and all this after the death of her father.


No, that's the one I was thinking of.

If OM is "embedded" only in nerve cells, how do you explain the Teg ghola?
FH in CHD wrote: That year he began studying the life of the Bashar Miles Teg, whose cells had started his new life. Odrade had explained some of this to him, holding up her fingernails. "I took tiny scrapings from his neck—cells of his skin and they held all we needed to bring you to life."


You've got a point there, I guess getting a nerve cell by fingernail scraping wouldn't be too discreet.

As for Hameroff, I see stuff like this...
Science, religion and Orch OR

Deepak Chopra Interview in Washington Post Online


particularly Deepak Chopra's name and I quickly lose interest.


I have no idea who that is and I haven't read much of the stuff on Hameroff's site, yet. I've meant to, just haven't had the time since I heard of him. He seems to have legitimate scientific credentials though.
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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby SandChigger » 01 Aug 2010 00:24

Actually, I think I see a way of interpreting the Alia "nerve cells" bit that may make sense...

Everyone receives OM in their body cells, so Alia would naturally have that source as well, but she was also awakened in utero and Shared with Ramallo and Jessica. Being conscious (awake) for that would mean the experience was registered in her brain ... which is the ultimate collection of nerve cells.

It doesn't make as much sense if you take the quote as referring to the nerve cells in her left big toe, of course. ;)


(Another problem with the "only recorded in nerve cells" idea is... how do the stored memories of each individual end up in their ova or sperm to be passed on to the next generation?)

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Re: KWISATZ HADERACH

Postby Ayat » 06 Aug 2010 20:53

Freakzilla wrote:
He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough. "
-from "Arrakis Awakening" by the Princess Irulan


Coming from Irulan who is not only Paul's wife but a BG.


Do I really need to explain? Isn’t it obvious from the books anyway?

Starting from the quote angle it seems like the quote may have been written after DM..
But I was more focussing on the “denied the conventions of his ducal past” which he justifies by being the KH. Since he feels the need to justify it someone must have been objecting, not the Fremen certainly, the general population – probably not. Those objecting would have to be from the Lanstrad or at the very least houses minor – who else would care. The quote also indicates that Paul did not try to hide that he was a KH and if anything announced it to reinforce his rule.
Even if you don’t believe that argument - the Fremen knew he was the KH (or at the very least that he took the water of life and survived) and it was part of the religion that surrounded Paul, which the Fremen then spread over the universe in the jihad.
Secondly if the the house that had be ruling for the last 10,000(?)yrs (a very long time at least) was forced to give up their empire to the young duke of a family that was meant to be wiped out, who also at the same time managed to gain control over the Guild. People would ask questions (of course they would investigate their new ruler and the Fremen culture/religion with which he was affiliated) and since he was by no means hiding the fact that he was a KH, they would have found out rather easily – everybody on Arakis knew.

I think the whole empire knew, it was part of their new religion after all and nobody was keeping it a secret.


There were and still are scientist who support cellular genetic memory.


That wasn’t my actual point obviously it was believed possible at the time Dune was written.

My point: the easiest way for the BT to gain a KH – Clone Paul.

However I should have said it would have given them evidence for ‘genetic memory’ not the idea.
And since this topic went on to be debated I will point out that the DNA in nerve cell is exactly the same as it is in every other somatic cell in the body (apart from the fact that different cell types have different parts of the DNA ‘activated’ i.e. those genes being expressed - the parts being actively transcribed into mRNA and hence proteins or the parts needed for coding for making the products needed by that cell e.g. serotonin, dopamine etc. in nerve cell as opposed to keratin for instance in skin cells. This difference wouldn’t give genetic memory as it is reversible methylation of the DNA and this pattern of activation changes throughout the development of a blastocyst to an embryo to a fetus to a baby/child).

Also personality and memory are (as far as it is known) found in the connections between neurons not the neurons themselves.

You should look for a geneticist not scientists – everybody is very specialised and may not have any idea about other disciplines and the longer they have been in a particular discipline the more likely this is.

Ok I have not actually looked at the links (couldn’t see its relevance to Dune so I couldn’t be bothered) but when scientists say genetic memory they may be talking about something completely different, more specifically that the genes/DNA itself has memory – like studies that show that children and grandchildren suffer from effects of their parents/grandparents periods of prolonged starvation (e.g. WWII) which shouldn’t affect the DNA (and cannot affect its sequence) and hence shouldn’t affect their descendents. Also the idea (though I don’t think this is linked to the term genetic memory as such) that it matters that one set of chromosomes came from the father and the other the mother c.f. angelman syndrome and prader-willi syndrome – same gene causes distinct disorders depending on whether the problem is with the paternal of maternal chromosome (this acts through gene expression/activation).


Didn't I say that?
Yes I was trying to make sure I understood, so you could correct me if it wasn’t what you meant.

I said it wasn't perfect. If I knew how he did it, I'd be prescient.

But if you have some idea it may mean your theory was more believable or at least indicate that you had thought it through. Why make up a theory that you don’t fully understand or that you can' justify?


Seeing the future changes it, thus creating the future. It is my theory that the oracle creates a sphere of influence just by predicting it. One oracle is clouded by another's or a no-feild's.

I see that is what I thought you were going for however this still fails to explain the no-fields as they being mechanical cannot see and hence change the future.

It is also my theory that Siona and her descendants are latent prescients and this shields them.

But if it is seeing the future that means they are capable of changing it, being latent prescients and hence ones that while capable do not in fact see the future would mean they would not be changing the future or in their current state of mind not have the ability and hence wouldn’t be shielded from prescience. Though I agree that Siona’s descendents have latent prescient abilities.
Though there is no indication in the books that anyone but a KH has the ability to alter the ‘paths’ people would take (change the future). (Teg a descendent of Sonia only ever see one path).
Though the only people we know that see such paths are Paul, Alia and Leto.
(Maybe the guildsmen, but then do they really see paths or just the one path where the ship arrives safe. Their oracle is rather interesting too.)

OK

Does this mean you agree? :)

You do realise though that the ‘quantum prescience’ and the ‘sphere of influence prescience’ must be mutually exclusive. Because even of the ‘projection’ meant a person took a different path then they would otherwise this would still be accounted for in the quantum and they wouldn’t be shielded.
For quantum prescience to be true shielding would be impossible. Though Paul is the only one that requires this explanation for his abilities within your theory (but fits in with the idea that Paul was different to the rest – more than a KH). So if you ignore Paul your theory is actually possible how you explain Paul just gets harder though.

What don't you understand? Teg is a descendant of Ghanima.

I know he was, that was just for completeness (after Paul and Leto maybe Alia he has the greatest prescient abilities).

I don’t get what you mean when you say ‘natural prescience’ at this stage do they actually see the future? And if you need mentat abilities to be prescient it would be impossible to predict the future i.e. have prescient dreams before gaining such abilities – though again this only fails to explain Paul – I also though part of your theory was that for prescience – however it works- was that they needed OM. So same thing as above, they wouldn’t be able to be prescient before gaining OM – fails to explain Paul and Teg.


I'm pretty sure she totally loses it at some point, I'll look for a quote later. I never said Leto wasn't possessed, I'm not sure what the point of that quote is.


Just backing up my earlier post mostly, thought I might as well.

No, it has to do with male ancestral personas being dominant and malignant and possessing their host (in the case of females).

Sorry your wrong. Ghanima as male and female OM and doesn't become possessed, she in fact discovers a way to avoid possession - namely gaining her own personality seperate to OM and having a benelovent ancestor protect her. Leto on the other hand becomes possessed at least in part by the pharoah. Being posessed is a danger for all the pre-born as they cannot fully seperate themselve from OM. It seems to me like they are almost part of OM themselves.



There has been much discussion about this, even going so far as to suggest that chani was given the WoL by Irulan in an attempt to kill her. I think my explanation is the most direct from what evidence there is in the book.


You’re right. I never put the contraceptive and the spice together in my mind so I had a problem with high spice diet being the only cause. It could have been something else but with the given facts your explanation is by far the most likely.

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

And whose opinion were you expecting it to be?

Do you concede that the BG don’t actually know what’s in the place that terrifies them?

Do you have an idea why they are so terrified if it is merely male OM?

Do you know why Paul claims to stare out of it?


Pix :wink:

(I wish you'd put some spaces between your points or something, it'd make it easier to respond to.)

I'll admit it's possible the BT KH was a clone of Paul, I don't think it's likely.


No
Done
and..
Progress?

Actually, from the evidence in the books it is the most likely.
I remember that the BG don’t know the specific genetic complement needed for a KH, because with Duncan in HoD/ChD they have full access to his DNA and still have no idea whether or not he is a KH. Teg is afraid they will kill him on suspicion of being a KH if he tells them he can see no-ships and the future – they already know his genetic code and certainly would have picked up that he wasn’t one and hence Teg would feel no threat.

So the only way for the BT to find such a sequence would be to start from Paul, work their way back, his father and mother, his grandfather etc. go through some trial and error – very time consuming stuff.
Then there is the added issue that the BT cannot create a KH ‘from scratch’ and have it still be a KH. As I explained before to be called a KH and individual must have prescient abilities and OM. A BT creation made from scratch would not have any ancestors being ‘new’ and hence would be incapable of OM.
Then for the BT it becomes a balancing act with adding the ‘KH genes’ to someone else’s genome. How much of the genome do these ‘KH genes’ take up? One would assume quite a lot but you never know. How much can you alter the original ‘donor’ genome before it becomes too different from the original to have OM? Can you alter it at all and still retain the potential to have OM?
There is no doubt the BT would have tried to do such things. (I’m thinking that the BT dwarf in DM (Barj?) which claims to have prescient abilities may have been a result of such experiments.)

Cloning Paul is by far the simplest (and fastest) solution for how they obtained a KH.
The BT may not have even had time between Dune and DM to create one from scratch, it would have required years of research.

Then there is what is says in the books.

"We sold you a creature called Hayt," Scytale said.
"Ah, yes -- Hayt," Edric said. "Why did you sell him to us?"
"Because we once bred a Kwisatz Haderach of our own," Scytale said.
With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him.
"You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
"You didn't ask," Scytale said.
"How did you overcome your Kwisatz Haderach?" Irulan asked.
"A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation," Scytale said.
"I do not understand," Edric ventured.
"He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled.

How devious she must not guess, Scytale thought. When this is done, we will possess a Kwisatz Haderach we can control. These others will possess nothing.
"What was the origin of your Kwisatz Haderach?" the Reverend Mother asked.
"We've dabbled in various pure essences," Scytale said. "Pure good and pure evil. A pure villain who delights only in creating pain and terror can be quite educational."
"The old Baron Harkonnen, our Emperor's grandfather, was he a Tleilaxu creation?" Irulan asked.
"Not one of ours," Scytale said. "But then nature often produces creations as deadly as ours. We merely produce them under conditions where we can study them."


How does a BT creature created solely for research have “one particular representation of his selfdom”? How does a BT creation even have an antithesis that is more in line with what the BT want then their own personality? (i.e. being raised by the BT how can it have a personality contrary to the BT wants unless they were just messing with it which i unlikely considering whatever KH they made would also have to be one of them)

Then “we will possess a KH we can control” – fare enough controlling Paul through Chani (and Duncan?) but how come they couldn’t control the one they created in heir labs?

It makes sense if it is a clone of Paul that had remembered his past life (current life?).

Personally I think Scytale changes the subject to the talk of pure essences when asked about the origin of their KH. I don’t see how a KH in any form would be ‘pure essence’ i.e. the distillation of one particular aspect – prescience (and OM) would reveal too much for them to stay ‘pure’. Well that’s my evidence for it being a change of subject if you don’t think that way when reading the text. It looks to me like Scytale lead them away from the subject of the KH to that of the Baron.
(Irulan asked a really stupid question for a BG who should at least know something about the breeding programme)

So I'll say again - Cloning Paul is the simplest, fastest and most likely solution.


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