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    Jessica and Hawat

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    Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Idahopotato » 20 Oct 2009 14:44

    I couldn't find this topic mentioned elsewhere, so if it is I do apologize for duplicating it. My question is why does Hawat know next to nothing about Jessica's abilities, despite being in charge of the spy network? Meanwhile, the Baron and Piter are well aware of BG voice abilities, hence the gagging when she is captured. Anyone have anything on this?
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Oct 2009 14:53

    Piter and the Baron tortured and killed Wanna Yueh.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Idahopotato » 20 Oct 2009 14:56

    Freakzilla wrote:Piter and the Baron tortured and killed Wanna Yueh.


    Good point. I was just thinking that right after I posted originally. Even still, do you think a BG would give up everything under torture or just a few tidbits here and there. I would think that they could control pain better than most (although there is always a breaking point). I imagine that she would feed them information they wanted to hear based on examining their body language, mannerisms, etc. but I doubt she would give up a secret weapon that would allow a sister the means to escape. She would most likely find a way to kill herself first, no?
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Redstar » 20 Oct 2009 15:14

    Why didn't she just stop her heart?
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby TheDukester » 20 Oct 2009 15:17

    Or Guilt Trip him ... Guilt Cast? Whatever that kewl power is that TheKJA pulled directly out of his ass.

    (Guilt Hurricane? Fuck it; whatever).
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Oct 2009 15:20

    I don't think Freak is saying they got any info out of her - but she would have almost certainly triend to use the voice to get away, and they would have learned from that.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Serkanner » 20 Oct 2009 15:21

    Redstar wrote:Why didn't she just stop her heart?


    Frank only came with that in Chapterhouse when Lucilla was captured by the HM ... if I remember correctly.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Oct 2009 15:28

    Serkanner wrote:
    Redstar wrote:Why didn't she just stop her heart?


    Frank only came with that in Chapterhouse when Lucilla was captured by the HM ... if I remember correctly.


    Yes, but even in Dune they are able to control their own bodies to the point where they can change the chemical structure of poisons they ingest - so if FH hadn't already realized they could self-destruct then he must have been smoking too much weed. :wink:
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2009 06:59

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I don't think Freak is saying they got any info out of her - but she would have almost certainly triend to use the voice to get away, and they would have learned from that.


    Yes, she's most certainly try Voice on her captors. If not Piter himself, a guard possibly. It's pretty much the BG primary offensive weapon.

    The BG were still mysterious "witches" at this point, people probably didn't know what was reality and what was myth until actually dealing with one. Hawat obviously hadn't had Voice used on himself before but I believe he was aware that Jessica was teaching Paul BG combat techniques, I think she even helped train some of the Duke's other lieutenants also.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Serkanner » 21 Oct 2009 13:19

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Redstar wrote:Why didn't she just stop her heart?


    Frank only came with that in Chapterhouse when Lucilla was captured by the HM ... if I remember correctly.


    Yes, but even in Dune they are able to control their own bodies to the point where they can change the chemical structure of poisons they ingest - so if FH hadn't already realized they could self-destruct then he must have been smoking too much weed. :wink:


    Fair enough. I'll buy that.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Ampoliros » 21 Oct 2009 16:36

    Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Apjak » 22 Oct 2009 08:56

    Don't under estimate Mentats, even/esp. twisted ones like Piter. Mentats exist to put together assumptions on limited data. So I imagine that if a Mentat turns his mind to the effects of the BG, many BG techniques and motives can be accurately guessed. Also Piter has a bit of a BG fixation, either stemming from his experiences with Wanna Yueh or it may have predated that.

    Hawat knew that BG were dangerous, but I don't think that he was thinking straight by the time Jessica came along. Hawat is one of the least forgivable characters in Dune, he's practically Senile and sentimental. Although I think Mentats would probably be expected to go down their own special Mentat dementia path. Mentat (-ism?) always seemed to me a forced type of Autism.

    Conclusion=
    Piter is at the top of his Mentat powers and he has a personal interest.
    Hawat's abilities are waning, and he's blinded by his emotion for Leto.

    Also note that Yueh knows more about BG abilities simply because of his marriage. So BG powers are an open secret hidden only in that to the populace they're known as "witches".
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby redbugpest » 22 Oct 2009 11:25

    I like your explination Apjak

    TH was an exploitable blind spot in the Atreides household, kept on out of loyalty as much as anything else.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby insidiom » 22 Oct 2009 12:16

    Apjak wrote:
    Hawat knew that BG were dangerous, but I don't think that he was thinking straight by the time Jessica came along. Hawat is one of the least forgivable characters in Dune, he's practically Senile and sentimental. Although I think Mentats would probably be expected to go down their own special Mentat dementia path. Mentat (-ism?) always seemed to me a forced type of Autism.



    so essentially, duke leto treated thufir as you would an ailing dog? dont buy another one until yours is in their twilight?
    strange that thufir would be the weakest...

    i mean, i can see it, but i guess i hadn't thought of it that way.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Apjak » 22 Oct 2009 12:38

    I'm not saying that Leto only kept him around for old times sake, but I think Hawat was, like many bright older people, a little behind the times. I think he was still a very capable Mentat, but maybe not exactly modern or shrewd. His shortcomings as a Mentat Master of Assassins were probably the fault of his Atreides employers. Hawat is constantly being reined in from torture and espionage, even though he thinks to do it against his Duke's wishes anyway. He is probably the only character who could have forseen and stopped Yueh's betrayal (perhaps Paul), but he's definitely the only one who rightly blamed himself for what he might have been able to do about it. Instead of accepting it, and moving on like a Mentat, he wallows in it for the rest of the story, and by way of that, the rest of his life.


    * dear Moderators, is there anyway we can get Dune jargon fed into the spell check? It's annoying to see words that I know how to spell get flagged.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby insidiom » 22 Oct 2009 12:42

    Apjak wrote:I'm not saying that Leto only kept him around for old times sake, but I think Hawat was, like many bright older people, a little behind the times. I think he was still a very capable Mentat, but maybe not exactly modern or shrewd. His shortcomings as a Mentat Master of Assassins were probably the fault of his Atreides employers. Hawat is constantly being reined in from torture and espionage, even though he thinks to do it against his Duke's wishes anyway. He is probably the only character who could have forseen and stopped Yueh's betrayal (perhaps Paul), but he's definitely the only one who rightly blamed himself for what he might have been able to do about it. Instead of accepting it, and moving on like a Mentat, he wallows in it for the rest of the story, and by way of that, the rest of his life.


    * dear Moderators, is there anyway we can get Dune jargon fed into the spell check? It's annoying to see words that I know how to spell get flagged.


    ok, i gotcha.

    pobrecito...
    "...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
    i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
    "that it does."

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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Idahopotato » 22 Oct 2009 12:56

    insidiom wrote:
    Apjak wrote:
    Hawat knew that BG were dangerous, but I don't think that he was thinking straight by the time Jessica came along. Hawat is one of the least forgivable characters in Dune, he's practically Senile and sentimental. Although I think Mentats would probably be expected to go down their own special Mentat dementia path. Mentat (-ism?) always seemed to me a forced type of Autism.



    so essentially, duke leto treated thufir as you would an ailing dog? dont buy another one until yours is in their twilight?
    strange that thufir would be the weakest...

    i mean, i can see it, but i guess i hadn't thought of it that way.


    Thufir is one of the greatest and well know Mentats. Even the Baron covets his abilities and thus goes out of his conniving way to get Hawat to work for him. I doubt the Baron would be this excited over an aging dog that another house kept on out of pity or some misplaced sense of loyalty.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Omphalos » 22 Oct 2009 13:20

    Ampoliros wrote:Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.


    Frank already established that "love" could compromise BG training and royal conditioning. The Harkkos could have gotten information out of Wanna.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Idahopotato » 22 Oct 2009 13:25

    Omphalos wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.


    Frank already established that "love" could compromise BG training and royal conditioning. The Harkkos could have gotten information out of Wanna.


    This is actually a very good point. While those that completed either of the schools were conditioned above and beyond any other form of conditioning in the known universe, love was something that could be, and indeed often was, the wild card.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby redbugpest » 22 Oct 2009 13:56

    Idahopotato wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.


    Frank already established that "love" could compromise BG training and royal conditioning. The Harkkos could have gotten information out of Wanna.


    This is actually a very good point. While those that completed either of the schools were conditioned above and beyond any other form of conditioning in the known universe, love was something that could be, and indeed often was, the wild card.


    But Wanna was not protecting Yueh by staying alive. If she loved him that much, she would have sacrificed herself to make sure that they couldn't use him like that.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2009 14:00

    redbugpest wrote:
    Idahopotato wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.


    Frank already established that "love" could compromise BG training and royal conditioning. The Harkkos could have gotten information out of Wanna.


    This is actually a very good point. While those that completed either of the schools were conditioned above and beyond any other form of conditioning in the known universe, love was something that could be, and indeed often was, the wild card.


    But Wanna was not protecting Yueh by staying alive. If she loved him that much, she would have sacrificed herself to make sure that they couldn't use him like that.


    Dr. Yueh didn't know if she was alive or dead until he met the Baron, just before Piter killed him.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Oct 2009 14:04

    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Idahopotato wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.


    Frank already established that "love" could compromise BG training and royal conditioning. The Harkkos could have gotten information out of Wanna.


    This is actually a very good point. While those that completed either of the schools were conditioned above and beyond any other form of conditioning in the known universe, love was something that could be, and indeed often was, the wild card.


    But Wanna was not protecting Yueh by staying alive. If she loved him that much, she would have sacrificed herself to make sure that they couldn't use him like that.


    Yup, makes no difference if she self destructed on day one, or fought till the end.

    Dr. Yueh didn't know if she was alive or dead until he met the Baron, just before Piter killed him.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Apjak » 22 Oct 2009 14:05

    Freakzilla wrote:Dr. Yueh didn't know if she was alive or dead until he met the Baron, just before Piter killed him.


    :text-yeahthat:

    I just want to throw out that Hawat is one of my favorite characters, but even FH's books just wrote him off. Paul's Mentat training was a big part of who he turned out to be, and Thufir must have been the one to have trained him.
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby TheDukester » 22 Oct 2009 15:21

    Apjak wrote:... but even FH's books just wrote him off.

    True dat. Whenever I go back to explore Dune, I always feel like Hawat is the "major" character that I know the least.

    (The movie and first miniseries didn't do him any favors, either)
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    Re: Jessica and Hawat

    Postby Omphalos » 22 Oct 2009 15:37

    redbugpest wrote:
    Idahopotato wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Also, BG were very wary about when to reveal their abilities. Wanna would not use that way out in front of someone as dangerous as Baron Harkonnen.


    Frank already established that "love" could compromise BG training and royal conditioning. The Harkkos could have gotten information out of Wanna.


    This is actually a very good point. While those that completed either of the schools were conditioned above and beyond any other form of conditioning in the known universe, love was something that could be, and indeed often was, the wild card.


    But Wanna was not protecting Yueh by staying alive. If she loved him that much, she would have sacrificed herself to make sure that they couldn't use him like that.


    I think you missed my point. Love helped the Harkkos break the imperial conditioning. It could have helped them do the same with Wanna: Make her ignore her duty, make her forego killing herself under threat that if she did so YEuh was next. Obviously all bets are off.
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