Other Memory

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Re: Chapter 21

Postby Freakzilla » 19 May 2012 02:34

gurensan wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Paul asks Jessica to show him where to find male OM:

Aloud, he said: "You speak of a place where you cannot enter? This place
which the Reverend Mother cannot face, show it to me."
She shook her head, terrified by the very thought.
"Show it to me!" he commanded.
"No!"
But she could not escape him. Bludgeoned by the terrible force of him, she
closed her eyes and focused inward -- the-direction-that-is-dark.
Paul's consciousness flowed through and around her and into the darkness.
She glimpsed the place dimly before her mind blanked itself away from the
terror. Without knowing why, her whole being trembled at what she had seen -- a
region where a wind blew and sparks glared, where rings of light expanded and
contracted, where rows of tumescent white shapes flowed over and under and
around the lights, driven by darkness and a wind out of nowhere.


:D


...nowhere in the context of that passage did Paul ask about OM.


Where is the place RMs cannot look? Masculine Other Memory.

Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a woman, the situation is reversed."
Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
She could only nod.
"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
"And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
"I'm at the fulcrum," he said, "I cannot give without taking and I cannot take without...." He broke off, look to the wall at his right.


That's a little more context to what you posted above. The part before it is just Paul snarfing a handful of the Water and then grabbing Jessica's head. I don't see OM in it. Sounds more like FH making a comment on basic human nature to me.


That is Paul explaining why Reverend Mothers dare not access Male OM, the risk of possession.

Freakzilla wrote:"How would you like to live billions upon billions of lives?" Paul asked.
"There's a fabric of legends for you! Think of all those experiences, the wisdom
they'd bring. But wisdom tempers love, doesn't it? And it puts a new shape on
hate. How can you tell what's ruthless unless you've plumbed the depths of both
cruelty and kindness? You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."
~Dune

How about now?


I remember reading that, but I can't remember where it is to look up the context, but IIRC that was Paul referring to his level of prescience and time-awareness, and his awareness of the billions of lives he knew he was going to be responsible for the death of. He barely said anything about being the KH before Jessica changed the Water and became a RM herself, after which she should've been well aware of what a billion lives looks like. If he were talking about OM... then it's a very whiny, immature thing to say to his mother.


It's just before Paul meets the emperor's entourage in the Arrakeen governor's mansion after the Battle of Arrakeen. It was in response to Jessica's shock at Alia killing Harkonnen/Sardaukar wounded. You have a point about Jessica knowing what that would be like, though. However, a Reverend Mother's OM was a work in progress by FH at this point and that Jessica only had Shared OM received from Ramallo when she changed the Water. Regardless, the definition of the KH is a male BG with both feminine and masculine ancestral memories.

Freakzilla wrote:The difference is she did not have time to form her own persona before accessing OM.


True. It's not the only difference though. She was born with the deep training and had only to train her body to match. Paul's training could not have been as complete.


True, but after taking the WoL and being prescient, the difference in their OM was only 15 years.

Freakzilla wrote:She was giving him the deep training the whole time:

"The sounds I make could be imitated."
"I'd know the difference."
He might at that, Hawat thought. That witch-mother of his is giving him the
deep training, certainly. I wonder what her precious school thinks of that?
Maybe that's why they sent the old Proctor here -- to whip our dear Lady Jessica
into line.


Thufir's speculating there, as well as speculating on the reason for Mohiam's visit. There is a possibility that anything that smacks of the BG in their social context might be thought of as "deep training." I don't think we can make this assumption based solely on Thufir's guess. In this arena, we have to perform as mentats as Thufir's not doing it for us.


And he was right, as indicated by your quote below.

"The Reverend Mother looked at Jessica. "You've been training him in the Way - I see the signs of it. I'd have done the same in your shoes and devil take the Rules."
Jessica nodded.
"Now, I caution you," said the old woman, "to ignore the regular order of training. His own safety requires the Voice. He already has a good start in it, but we both know how much more he needs... and that desperately." She stepped close to Paul, stared down at him. "Goodbye, you human. I hope you make it. But if you don't - well, we shall yet succeed."


The question is - what type of training? Standard BG training, or the training any BG mother gives to her otherwise normal son? Just a thought experiment, it's undoubtedly much deeper than the usual mom->boy, but we can't rely on Thufir's opinion of the BG when judging the depth of the training of one person, even given these two.

BUT! Here's something!

"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory - in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues in the past . . . but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said that a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot - into both feminine and masculine pasts."

and then later:

The old woman stared at Paul, then: "Young man, as a Proctor of the Bene Gesserit, I seek the Kwisatz Haderach, the male who truly can become one of us. Your mother sees the possibility in you, but she sees with the eyes of a mother. Possibility I see, too, but no more."


I can give you that he had it (grudgingly), after he took the Water, even though Frank played it down, but not using your quotes. Alia had it from the get-go and FH spent more than a few sentences on what was wrong with Alia. Yeah she was too young, but the differences in their training are pretty huge.

I think these should probably be moved to the appropriate area... I think we're discussing Dune more than Chap 21 of DM. You game to move it?

*Don't mind any typos, I don't have a PDF of anything and have to look stuff up and type book quotes by hand.


Yes, I'll move it to the OM topic, I believe it's in the BG forum... I don't mind discussing previous books and chapters so much, but "The Way" is explained more in later books (CH:D). After some tea, though :wink:
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Re: Chapter 21

Postby gurensan » 20 May 2012 21:06

Freakzilla wrote:Yes, I'll move it to the OM topic, I believe it's in the BG forum... I don't mind discussing previous books and chapters so much, but "The Way" is explained more in later books (CH:D). After some tea, though :wink:


Yeah, I reaaally wanted to refrain from the Way but there's just no way to avoid it once you've made even a single pass through all 6. You'll always use the later books to bring the first few into better perspective.

I have to add though that it's %*^&$ nice to be able to talk OH with people who have actually read it and tried to understand it. That's a rare thing and Jacurutu is the bomb for it.
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Re: Chapter 21

Postby Freakzilla » 21 May 2012 06:47

I exist only to serve. :D
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 21 May 2012 06:53

The Latest group of comments were merged from the Dune Messiah Reading Group.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby kindjal » 26 Dec 2012 11:30

I presume that this matter is just been discussed but... Are the memories a "scientific" process or something more "paranormal"?
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Dec 2012 17:14

kindjal wrote:I presume that this matter is just been discussed but... Are the memories a "scientific" process or something more "paranormal"?


In the novels they are "genetic" or "ancestral" memory. There is very little/no evidence of it in the real world, depending on who you ask.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Spicehopper » 29 Dec 2012 22:06

I've wondered more than once if FH might have had RNA in mind while inventing OM.

My kowledge of biology is severely curtailed, but I think RNA was seriously posited at one time as a possible mechanism for (normal) memory.

A quick google on RNA & memory turns up the work of James V McConnel ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_V._McConnell ) who also had an interest in worms - flatworms (planarians) in particular. From the wikipedia article:

His paper Memory transfer through cannibalism in planarians, published in the Journal of Neuropsychiatry, reported that when planarians conditioned to respond to a stimulus were ground up and fed to other planarians, the recipients learned to respond to the stimulus faster than a control group did. McConnell believed that this was evidence of a chemical basis for memory, which he identified as memory RNA.


That paper was from 1962 and it seems plausible FH might have been aware of it, or similar work - there appears to have been some press coverage at the time (e.g. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BrgeAAAAIBAJ&%20sjid=RmUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4807,6623836 )

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Re: Other Memory

Postby Bronso » 29 Dec 2012 22:47

kindjal wrote:I presume that this matter is just been discussed but... Are the memories a "scientific" process or something more "paranormal"?


From the point of view of the book it was supposed to be a scientific process, where each cell encoded our memories within it, and all those memories existed and were passed on from one generation to the next (though mostly only accessible via the most basic instinct/feelings, with the exception of KH's / RM's).

However, in reality there is no information of that nature encoded into every cell of our body like that. Memory is solely a function of the nervous system. Does that make it paranormal? I'd say that comes down to the intention within the book. Even the things that Frank writes that we look at as only possible through paranormal means Frank usually writes as being possible through non-paranormal means in the world of the book.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby SadisticCynic » 29 Dec 2012 23:25

As others have said, there is no way to encode memories into cells in that way, never mind encode them into the genetic information of the gametes to be passed on.

I like to think of ancestral memory as a generous extension of the fact that we carry our evolutionary history with us, in the structure of the human body, and in particular in how the brain processes information.

There are likely links to Jung's collective unconscious concept as well.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Dec 2012 19:08

In the Dune universe it was stored in the nerve cells:

"Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had
awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the
knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells -- and all this after
the death of her father.

~DM
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Bronso » 31 Dec 2012 14:54

Good reference from the earlier books, definitely seems at the time that's what Frank was leaning towards, and I had not noticed that.

However, later in his other books Frank definitely made any cell be a container for the memories. For example Teg's ghola was made from skin cell scratchings, and he was able to recover his past memories.

I'd give other examples, but that's the only that I know for sure isn't tainted by BH/KJA work. When it comes to those details it's hard to remember which set of books I got it from (I was one of the ones unfortunate enough to actually read Hunters/Sandworms, as well as one interquel...it has tainted some of my details of the Duniverse, I'm currently re-reading all FH only work for the 3rd time trying to get the BH/KJA stain out). But the Teg example I'm fairly positive is from Frank, since Teg's ghola is from ChD.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Dec 2012 16:55

Bronso wrote:Good reference from the earlier books, definitely seems at the time that's what Frank was leaning towards, and I had not noticed that.

However, later in his other books Frank definitely made any cell be a container for the memories. For example Teg's ghola was made from skin cell scratchings, and he was able to recover his past memories.

I'd give other examples, but that's the only that I know for sure isn't tainted by BH/KJA work. When it comes to those details it's hard to remember which set of books I got it from (I was one of the ones unfortunate enough to actually read Hunters/Sandworms, as well as one interquel...it has tainted some of my details of the Duniverse, I'm currently re-reading all FH only work for the 3rd time trying to get the BH/KJA stain out). But the Teg example I'm fairly positive is from Frank, since Teg's ghola is from ChD.


True, but Teg and Duncan only got their own serial memories restored, not ancestral memory; which is what Alia was talking about in my quote.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Bronso » 31 Dec 2012 17:25

That is a good point. It brings up an interesting topic of the differences between ghola past-life memory and OM scientifically (duniverse science I mean of course, obviously none of this is part of real science...)

My counter is that I believe the intention was that the same mechanism that stores personal memory is the mechanism that stores other memory. The idea of the storing of current memory and encoding it in the cell seemed intrinsically linked to the passing on of those memories accumulated with OM to offspring. So if self memories are being stored in every cell then I assume OM is also present in those cells as well, just deeper down and harder to access. But I admit that that is assumption without hard evidence, just a conclusion I had drawn by the time I had read all his books.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Dec 2012 18:38

Then we have Duncan the Last who gets all his serial memories back even for those incarnations he doesn't possess cells from... :?
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Bronso » 03 Jan 2013 02:06

Yeah, I don't even have a theory for that...
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Re: Other Memory

Postby kindjal » 03 Jan 2013 15:09

I think ancerstal memories can be restored only with melange, no?
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jan 2013 15:22

kindjal wrote:I think ancerstal memories can be restored only with melange, no?


No, there were Reverend Mothers before the discovery of the Water of Life. Other poisons will do it. However, once the spice is used, nothing else will work.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby distrans » 09 Jan 2013 03:52

Freakzilla wrote:
kindjal wrote:I think ancerstal memories can be restored only with melange, no?


No, there were Reverend Mothers before the discovery of the Water of Life. Other poisons will do it. However, once the spice is used, nothing else will work.


couple questions
wheres the reference to a reverend mothers existance before the discovery of arrakis,
and

what do you mean by "nothing else will work"

once a women has survived the agony
shes no need of any substance every again "working" the process of her survival of it...

are you speaking of the maintainance of the ability survival of the process allows?

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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jan 2013 06:02

distrans wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
kindjal wrote:I think ancerstal memories can be restored only with melange, no?


No, there were Reverend Mothers before the discovery of the Water of Life. Other poisons will do it. However, once the spice is used, nothing else will work.


couple questions
wheres the reference to a reverend mothers existance before the discovery of arrakis,
and


I didn't say before the discovery of Arrakis, I said before the discovery of the Water of Life. The BG didn't know about it until Jessica reported the Fremen practices to them after the events in Dune.

what do you mean by "nothing else will work"


"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There are
other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but once they've
used the spice liquor, the others no longer work."

~Dune

once a women has survived the agony
shes no need of any substance every again "working" the process of her survival of it...

Not only do they need it after the agony to survive, they need it for the sharing of Other Memory and the Truthsayer trance.

are you speaking of the maintainance of the ability survival of the process allows?

I don't really understand that part of your question but I hope I've answered it above.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby distrans » 09 Jan 2013 15:26

i remember Muad'Dib point out that truthsayer
that rest id forgotten
and ive mostly skipped the first book in rereading

id always thought they could dry out and at least survive
albiet with diminished abilities

didnt think some would be completely turned offf



Muad'Dib's statement acknowledges that you can become a revered mother with these abilities without the spice...

he describes reverend mothers doing "all" their tricks without spice,
doesnt this admit non-spice essense induced agony experiences?

i thought that access to other memories was the hallmark description of a reverend mother

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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jan 2013 15:43

distrans wrote:and ive mostly skipped the first book in rereading


:o

id always thought they could dry out and at least survive
albiet with diminished abilities


Without melange, billions upon billions of Imperial citizens would die of addictive withdrawal.
~Dune Messiah

didnt think some would be completely turned offf


That may very well be the case... before they died.

Muad'Dib's statement acknowledges that you can become a revered mother with these abilities without the spice...

he describes reverend mothers doing "all" their tricks without spice,
doesnt this admit non-spice essense induced agony experiences?

i thought that access to other memories was the hallmark description of a reverend mother


REVEREND MOTHER: originally, a proctor of the Bene Gesserit, one who has
transformed an "illuminating poison" within her body, raising herself to a
higher state of awareness. Title adopted by Fremen for their own religious
leaders who accomplished a similar "illumination." (See also Bene Gesserit and
Water of Life.)

~Dune
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Re: Other Memory

Postby inhuien » 10 Jan 2013 04:21

A point illustrated during the death of Sietch Tabr's Reverend Mother that she had OM without GB training.
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Re: Other Memory

Postby distrans » 10 Jan 2013 19:02

a good explaination of the why leto made his peace with other memories whom turned out to be.

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Re: Other Memory

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jan 2014 07:50

http://www.sciencegymnasium.com/2014/01 ... s-may.html

Scientists have found that memories may be passed down through generations in our DNA

New research from Emory University School of Medicine, in Atlanta, has shown that it is possible for some information to be inherited biologically through chemical changes that occur in DNA. During the tests they learned that that mice can pass on learned information about traumatic or stressful experiences – in this case a fear of the smell of cherry blossom – to subsequent generations.

According to the Telegraph, Dr Brian Dias, from the department of psychiatry at Emory University, said: ”From a translational perspective, our results allow us to appreciate how the experiences of a parent, before even conceiving offspring, markedly influence both structure and function in the nervous system of subsequent generations.

“Such a phenomenon may contribute to the etiology and potential intergenerational transmission of risk for neuropsychiatric disorders such as phobias, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder.”

This suggests that experiences are somehow transferred from the brain into the genome, allowing them to be passed on to later generations.

The researchers now hope to carry out further work to understand how the information comes to be stored on the DNA in the first place.

They also want to explore whether similar effects can be seen in the genes of humans.

Professor Marcus Pembrey, a paediatric geneticist at University College London, said the work provided “compelling evidence” for the biological transmission of memory.

He added: “It addresses constitutional fearfulness that is highly relevant to phobias, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorders, plus the controversial subject of transmission of the ‘memory’ of ancestral experience down the generations.

“It is high time public health researchers took human transgenerational responses seriously.

“I suspect we will not understand the rise in neuropsychiatric disorders or obesity, diabetes and metabolic disruptions generally without taking a multigenerational approach.”

Professor Wolf Reik, head of epigenetics at the Babraham Institute in Cambridge, said, however, further work was needed before such results could be applied to humans.

He said: “These types of results are encouraging as they suggest that transgenerational inheritance exists and is mediated by epigenetics, but more careful mechanistic study of animal models is needed before extrapolating such findings to humans.”

May our DNA Carrying also spiritual and cosmic memories passed down in genes from our ancestors ?
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Re: Other Memory

Postby Serkanner » 07 Jan 2014 14:33

Interestingly enough I was laughed off earlier in this topic (page 5) about me having a similar premises. Serkanner score!
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