Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Genetic, cellular or ancestral memory that is accessed when a Bene Gesserit adept successfully transmutes an illuminating poison into and awarness spectrum narcotic, becoming a Revernd Mother or Kwisatz Haderach.

Shared Memories are Other Memories passed between Reverend Mothers near death or durring the Truthtrance.

What (if anything) did we finally decide about Other Memory and Shared Memory back in November? About whether Shared Memory would or would not be passed on along with Other Memory if the RM in question had a child after the sharing....

I think only the ancestral memory would be passed on but the memory persona of the mother would have the Shared Memory. It would just be filtered through the mother's persona.

Interactions that the RM had with OM could be passed down as direct memory, but unless there was a genetic link, OM personalities that had been acquired by sharing would not be passed. Not sure if that is what we decided but that is what I think. But since most of the access of OM was by abad, Ill bet it was pretty hard to tell anyway.

Omphalos wrote:But since most of the access of OM was by abad...

Except when they first access it and maybe even always during the spice trip. IIRC, Jessica sees the entire life of each Shared Memory she receives.

Back in November I was wondering if there might not be a difference in storage location: ancestral memory in the genes, spread throughout the body; shared memory in the brain. The result would be that SM would not be passed on, only the memory of having received it along with any information accessed from it.

But that's just speculation and can't be justified from anything in the books that I know of at present. (Do they touch heads to share, or am I muddling things?)

(OM is real-world-silly. Adding SM data to it simply compounds the silliness. IMHO.)

By the way, do we all agree that the method of memory transfer in SM is T-P (telepathy)? (IIRC when this came up earlier someone I choose not to name mentioned something like pheromones or sweat or loose skin cells and other nonsense. In the absence of them swapping spit or some other exchange of bodily material, I can think of no physical means for the transfer. It's obvious [to me at least] that what occurs between Ramallo and Jessica is telepathic. A view I think is bolstered by that "psychokinesthetic extension of herself" that Jessica uses to alter the Water of Life. T-K, in other words.)

Yeah, I think SM has to be passed from one to another with telepathy. Leto II and Paul had a telepathic link so I don't think it's crazy that the BG use telepathy to share memories.

I asked on another thread whether the Truthsayer drug used by the BG was the spice but maybe it belongs here.

I've just read the part where Paul and Jessica have escaped the Harkonnens and Paul has his awakening in the stilltent. Paul mentions the spice being in everything on Arrakis and that "it's like the Truthsayer drug". So it seems the Truthsayer drug wasn't the spice, but I think I remember in the later FH books that the BG needed spice to create more RMs. Why didn't they just carry on using the Truthsayer drug instead of spice?

I don't see why they really couldn't have created new RMs with the old drug once the spice was not available.

But of course for those RMs created using spice, nothing else would work. And the spice did work better than anything else they knew.

(Interesting question in connection with the origin of the HMs out in the Scattering, too.)

I'm still not sure about this. If spice worked better than anything else, why weren't the BG using spice to create RMs in Dune instead of the Truthsayer drug? Mohiam tells Paul the BG use the Truthsayer drug to look within, and we find out later that "looking within" means Other Memory. The BG move from using the Truthsayer drug to using spice to gain access to OM in the later books, or am I missing something?

chanilover wrote:I asked on another thread whether the Truthsayer drug used by the BG was the spice but maybe it belongs here.

I've just read the part where Paul and Jessica have escaped the Harkonnens and Paul has his awakening in the stilltent. Paul mentions the spice being in everything on Arrakis and that "it's like the Truthsayer drug". So it seems the Truthsayer drug wasn't the spice, but I think I remember in the later FH books that the BG needed spice to create more RMs. Why didn't they just carry on using the Truthsayer drug instead of spice?

"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There are
other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but once they've
used the spice liquor, the others no longer work."
~Dune

One thing we should probably keep in mind as we reread Dune, I should think.

There's this, from the final showdown at the end, Paul speaking to Shaddam:

"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There are other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but once they've used the spice liquor, the others no longer work."

This goes back again to the problem of what exactly "spice liquor" refers to. It can't be the Water of Life because Jessica and Paul have only discovered what that is within the last year or two before, no? Some concentrated, liquid form of spice then? After the Arrakis Incident/Revolt, the knowledge of the WoL no doubt spread to the BG and they changed their practices to utilize it almost exclusively.

That sound right?

D'uh.

(Once again we see the wisdom of previewing before you post. Freak is ever vigilant. )

I don't think the Bene Gesserit had ever seen the cerimony of the seed, nor any non-Fremen. The people Paul was talking to wouldn't know WTF the Water of Life was. I think the Bene Gesserit before Jessica used an "illuminating poison" other than the WoL or used a strong dose of spice liquor.

The spice essence obviously was better too, because it has the dual properties of both being a poison and extending life.



Which always led me to wonder if children born to RMs can be weaned off the spice or will it kill them? I also always wonder why the BG rellied on the spice so much if there were other poisons.

There's never any mention of Melange dependant offspring from Melange addicts, my guess would be that the umbilical prohibits it's transfer from Mother to Child. Which is thankful as withdrawal would kill the child.

edit to add...

But the Water of Life is another matter ofcourse.

I think Spice Liquor is just that, something made from normal spice. Essence would just be another name for changed WoL. It can't be called WoL if it's changed to something else!

There is a reference to "unchanged spice essence" in the books. Well that would only make sense if it was the WoL. Changed Essence would have been a vital part of the Fremen's diet so this is why we see it used in Fremen cooking.

Paul focused his memory on the encounter with Irulan. He'd let himself into
the family salon, noted an unfinished robe on Chani's loom. There'd been an
acrid wormsmell to the place, an evil odor which almost hid the underlying
cinnamon bite of melange. Someone had spilled unchanged spice essence and left
it to combine there with a spice-based rug.

Crys, are you sure they would have used changed essence for anything besides the tau orgy? I always had the feeling it was regular (blow) spice they used in their cooking, tea, beer, etc.

Paul stood beside Chani in the shadows of the inner cave. He could still
taste the morsel she had fed him--bird flesh and grain bound with spice honey
and encased in a leaf. In tasting it he had realized he never before had eaten
such a concentration of spice essence and there had been a moment of fear. He
knew what this essence could do to him--the spice change that pushed his mind
into prescient awareness.

Well, this is just theory of mine. It is the only way I can explain everything written about the spice. "Unchanged spice essence" just doesn't make any sense unless it's actually another name for WoL, and having spice essence in food doesn't make any sense unless it's changed, or else everyone would die.

Sorry, you're right. I just went back through and looked at the 16 occurrences of "spice essence" in the originals. The only way for it to make sense when mentioned in the context of food eaten by normal people is to assume that it means changed WoL.

WOW, that's heavy. I've never once got even close to making that connection/correlation but it does of an explanation to the collective consciousness thing the Freman have going on.

inhuien wrote:There's never any mention of Melange dependant offspring from Melange addicts, my guess would be that the umbilical prohibits it's transfer from Mother to Child. Which is thankful as withdrawal would kill the child.

edit to add...

But the Water of Life is another matter of course.

I've been pondering this and have came up with a pretty obvious counter argument. That being the case of Chani and the Atreides Twins who are of course awakened to full consciousness in Chani's womb because of the huge doses of melange she was ingesting. Although i've thinking now that it could have been a combination of factors:

* the mixture of wild Freman genes and Atreides.
* the huge appetite of Chani while pregnant and the now discovered WoL in the Freman diet.
* or it could always have been good old chemical change to quote Mr. Hicks.

inhuien wrote:

inhuien wrote:There's never any mention of Melange dependant offspring from Melange addicts, my guess would be that the umbilical prohibits it's transfer from Mother to Child. Which is thankful as withdrawal would kill the child.

edit to add...

But the Water of Life is another matter of course.

I've been pondering this and have came up with a pretty obvious counter argument. That being the case of Chani and the Atreides Twins who are of course awakened to full consciousness in Chani's womb because of the huge doses of melange she was ingesting. Although i've thinking now that it could have been a combination of factors:

* the mixture of wild Freman genes and Atreides.
* the huge appetite of Chani while pregnant and the now discovered WoL in the Freman diet.
* or it could always have been good old chemical change to quote Mr. Hicks.

Chani was poisoned by Irulan with unchanged WoL, right before she gave birth.

It's obvious if you read Messiah.

(probably get killed for this one.....agian )

So she died a wild RM?

inhuien wrote:So she died a wild RM?

Would you want to go through the Agony while giving birth to twins? She didn't make it to the wild RM part, but Leto and Ghani did!

I don't see that Chani would have a choice here, once

Crysknife wrote:Chani was poisoned by Irulan with unchanged WoL, right before she gave birth.

she would be forced to change the WoL or die, she didn't die (right then) so she must have changed it. At least that's my take on it, assuming you're right on the WoL poisoning. I've had a look for a section supporting that and came up plums, could you point me in the right direction pls.