Other Memory

[Serkanner]

Perhaps I haven't been clear on this. I am not defending "the idea that our cells register "memories" and safe them for later transport to the next generation.

I was merely trying to point out that I think Frank Herbert was inspired by genetic memory of which "instinct" is a example. As far as I know there is no prove that explains why the kittens indeed start washing without being taught to ... in other words: the old debate about nature or nurture hasn't been fully answered yet.

All our genetic information is stored in our DNA. Only very recently ( last decades ) we start to understand a tiny bit of it. Isn't it a bit too arrogant to think we can definitely say it isn't possible to have some sort of OM? The info to grow a human body from two "simple" cells is stored in its DNA.

We are not capable of reading this language yet, but that doesn't mean there is no language. The Tleilaxu know that DNA is "God's" language ... and I understand why.

[SandChigger]

But the Tleilaxu exist in a universe where OM is a reality. We don't.

And no, we don't yet know everything about how the information in DNA does everything it does, but it's just information on how to build things...what parts (proteins and such) to make and where...and when. And when to stop. But there isn't some little image of the whole in there.

Again I repeat: for the experiences of an individual to be passed on to future generations, information would have to be added to the germline/reproductive cells of that individual. There is no known mechanism for doing that, or any evidence of one.

[Serkanner]

But the Tleilaxu exist in a universe where OM is a reality. We don't.

And no, we don't yet know everything about how the information in DNA does everything it does, but it's just information on how to build things...what parts (proteins and such) to make and where...and when. And when to stop. But there isn't some little image of the whole in there.

Again I repeat: for the experiences of an individual to be passed on to future generations, information would have to be added to the germline/reproductive cells of that individual. There is no known mechanism for doing that, or any evidence of one.

Bloody hell! I know there is no known mechanism for doing that, or any evidence of one. We are discussing a book here aren't we? Aren't we trying to find an acceptable explanation for OM? Also, we are talking science fiction ... better still: fiction some odd 20,000 years from now. The lack of our knowledge now in this universe says nothing about the "likelyness" of possibilities in the far future.

As long as we do not know ALL about DNA we can not just wipe out the possibility that memories are stored in our cells ... in some way. Adding to this that DNA is stored information I do not find it hard to accept that OM could be indeed memories stored in brain-cells and passed on from one generation to another ... 20,000 years from now.

[SandChigger]

I thought we were discussing both at once.

The problem with that "in the far future" angle is that the people 20,000+ years from now have memories extending back almost to the beginning of the species (in Leto II's case). That means it's something natural, not a technological or other development, a feature of the animal from the beginning.

As has been pointed out in one of these OM threads somewhere, it would be physically impossible to store, in DNA or some other cell element, all the information OM seems to include...from countless generations of ancestors. The nucleus of cells would explode with the swelling DNA, or the cell walls, eventually.

Sorry, but our current ignorance doesn't admit into the realm of possibility what must forever remain impossible.

[Serkanner]

I thought we were discussing both at once.

And that is probably what is confusing me all the time in this topic

The problem with that "in the far future" angle is that the people 20,000+ years from now have memories extending back almost to the beginning of the species (in Leto II's case). That means it's something natural, not a technological or other development, a feature of the animal from the beginning.

As has been pointed out in one of these OM threads somewhere, it would be physically impossible to store, in DNA or some other cell element, all the information OM seems to include...from countless generations of ancestors. The nucleus of cells would explode with the swelling DNA, or the cell walls, eventually.

Well, that does seem likely to be true, but begs the answer how do we store our own memories and how many experiences do we need to overflow one's memory capacity? Our brains seem to be able to cope rather well with storing huge amounts of information.

Sorry, but our current ignorance doesn't admit into the realm of possibility what must forever remain impossible.

However beautiful that sentence is constructed, it doesn't make it true. Our ignorance also tells us that we are the only sentient beings in the universe ... but that doesn't make it true. Our ignorance also told us for a very long time the Earth was flat ... but that doesn't seem to be true either.

A few thousand years ago most of humanity lived in caves and huts. Is it impossible that 20,000 in the future we gain a whole set of other abilities, techniques, knowledge ... magic?

[Freakzilla]

I'm with Serkanner, we may not have the knowledge of it's existance or how to access it now, but we could in the future.

[SandChigger]

Whatever.

[Tyrant]

Whatever.

im with chigger on this one

[Serkanner]

Whatever.

Solid argument.

[SandChigger]

Meh.

The burden of proof is on those who say something exists. (In the real world) It's not real if there are no physical correlates whatsoever.

If you want to store information from experience in cells there must be a mechanism for it. (I believe the most commonly accepted theory is that information is stored in the brain in the synapses and connections between cells, rather than inside the cells per se, but I may be wrong on that. Anyone know?)

If you want to pass that stored information to future generations, there must be a mechanism for transferring the information into the reproductive cells.

The amount of information stored and passed on will increase over time, with each generation. Because the information is stored in a physical medium, the amount of that medium needed will also increase over time. Eventually cells will be full of nothing but the medium storing the experiential information of ancestors and must either expand or rupture. (We don't see this happening in the real world, do we?) Unless, of course, there is some mechanism for selecting and discarding old or other information based on some criterion, maintaining the amount of stored information at some constant. (Real world consideration, evidently NOT in effect in Duniverse humans, where OM stretches back to "Adam and Eve".)

I'm repeating myself here, but hopefully not without point. Indicate which of my assumptions or statements will be invalidated by these amazing future discoveries you foresee. Anything that remains is independent of our level of knowledge/ignorance.

[Serkanner]

Meh.

The burden of proof is on those who say something exists. (In the real world) It's not real if there are no physical correlates whatsoever.

Yes; The burden of proof does indeed lie there. It still doesn't exclude the possibility and THAT is what has my interest. I don't have the education nor the knowledge to discuss advanced physics. I do however like to talk about the possibilities and whether it could be true some time in a distant future because we also do not have proof that it is not and never will be possible.

I'm repeating myself here, but hopefully not without point. Indicate which of my assumptions or statements will be invalidated by these amazing future discoveries you foresee. Anything that remains is independent of our level of knowledge/ignorance.

I can not invalidate your assumptions or statements.

[Ampoliros]

Mitochondria encrypt our memories into our DNA, which stores it in an ever changing "holographic" memory form. I mean Holographic here in that the information is keyed to certain parts of DNA, allowing multiple meanings from one strand of DNA based upon how you decrypt it.

But you still have to click your heels together three times, and clap so the faeries don't die.

[A Thing of Eternity]

This has gone almost to the level of the FTL debate over on DN

"Who knows what they might discover in the future" is not a valid argument for something which as far as all respectable modern science is concerned is impossible. I',m with Chigger on this one, but I have a feeling we're going to have to let this argument go lest we all beat each other senseless.

If we have to believe that OM might one day turn out to exist then all we can really base it on is some not-yet-made-up metaphysical soul of the universe and/or metaphysical hive mind of humanity type ideas. There is simply no physical way for it to be possible, regardless of whether or not we know everything about DNA yet. There just isn't room for that kind of data, and there is a limit to how compressed data can be while still being coherent, and there is a limit to "where" that info could be theoretically stored in the physical realm

Obviously we can't 100% disprove that it might one day be discovered that we store our minds in some non-corporeal realm and later generations can access that, but we can't 100% disprove anything, so that's kind of a ridiculous argument, though I can see why it is a necessary one if you’re the kind of person who needs to rationalize everything in an SF novel (I’m usually that kind of person myself, but I’ve learned to let this one go because FH is a strong enough writer that he’s allowed to step outside of reality IMO).

[Freakzilla]

Well, if Duncan (the last) had memories of incarnations from which his body contained no cells, the information has to be stored somewhere else.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Well, if Duncan (the last) had memories of incarnations from which his body contained no cells, the information has to be stored somewhere else.

Agreed. Unless that was a fuck up by FH it is pretty persuasive evidence that he was trying to get away from OM as DNA info and into metaphysics. I could see him trying to do something like that to keep more in line with current scientific theory.

[Freakzilla]

Well, if Duncan (the last) had memories of incarnations from which his body contained no cells, the information has to be stored somewhere else.

Agreed. Unless that was a fuck up by FH it is pretty persuasive evidence that he was trying to get away from OM as DNA info and into metaphysics. I could see him trying to do something like that to keep more in line with current scientific theory.

I don't think it was a fuck up, that point was made very clearly.

[SandChigger]

Yep...it does seem like he was headed in that direction (away from a pure DNA-based explanation of OM).

He would've had to have handled it very carefully, though. The introduction of a soul or similar bullshit would have killed my interest immediately. THAT way leadeth down to the hocus-bogus Wacky Hacked Duniverse of KJA and what's-his-name.

[loremaster]

I actually thought one plausible hypothesis was going to be a "time protein" aspect of genetics.

Gibberish? but when you look at how mutation occurs, it is quite conceivable that any sort of protein structure which manipulated time to the tiniest degree would be the basis of the whole books.

By then taking commonly known mechanisms in genetics (such as copy number or expression) you could vary strength. Translocation of the time-bending coding region into other proteins would generate many new proteins which might have new abilities. Mutation would generate similar, non/semi functional proteins a la Siona.

In much the same way as i once wanted to explain OM via oscillations in molecules, i think time-proteins might explain prescience AND om.

Imagine that one somehow quantumly unstable protein could come about, which had implications for time. If that protein could oscillate in such a way as to generate a signal, where everything occuring around it could subtly alter the frequency/variation of the many-dimensional wave it generated, then potentially another receptive protein might be able to pick up and decode that signal, which might have come from the past or the future in time. Interference would also explain how prescients were shielded from other prescients. Guildsmen might be poor recievers but good transmitters, Or it might be the converse (not transmitting therefore unable to be seen.) Someone like Leto would probably be both good at recieving AND transmitting. I dont know, its a method, not a mechanism :p .

Being biological would instantly validate any and all breeding/hereditary links too, since thats the whole basis for biology.

On the other hand my understanding of physics is cack, so signals which travel in time much like others travel in 3 might be total bollocks. But to me, any wave which DID travel in time would explain lots, especially if that wave had the ability to "collapse" any quantum uncertainties, thus "Locking" the future in place.


Feel free to pick that apart at your leisure. I'll be dissapointed if i dont provoke a reaction in at least 'Chig and Phaedrus.

[SandChigger]

My spheencter started resonating about halfway through...does that count?

(I think it's Middle C...but don't have a piano handy to sit on and make sure.)

Get back to you on this later?

[Serkanner]

This has gone almost to the level of the FTL debate over on DN

Thank you for the compliment

"Who knows what they might discover in the future" is not a valid argument for something which as far as all respectable modern science is concerned is impossible. I',m with Chigger on this one, but I have a feeling we're going to have to let this argument go lest we all beat each other senseless.

If we have to believe that OM might one day turn out to exist then all we can really base it on is some not-yet-made-up metaphysical soul of the universe and/or metaphysical hive mind of humanity type ideas. There is simply no physical way for it to be possible, regardless of whether or not we know everything about DNA yet. There just isn't room for that kind of data, and there is a limit to how compressed data can be while still being coherent, and there is a limit to "where" that info could be theoretically stored in the physical realm

Obviously we can't 100% disprove that it might one day be discovered that we store our minds in some non-corporeal realm and later generations can access that, but we can't 100% disprove anything, so that's kind of a ridiculous argument, though I can see why it is a necessary one if you’re the kind of person who needs to rationalize everything in an SF novel (I’m usually that kind of person myself, but I’ve learned to let this one go because FH is a strong enough writer that he’s allowed to step outside of reality IMO).

I never claimed it to be a valid argument. I never claimed it to be an argument at all, but an, to me at least, interesting subject of discussion. perhaps I should head back to Dumbnovels instead because my interests don't interest you enough?


However, I also don't see "respected modern science" as a valid argument when we are discussing subjects like:

Folding space
floating in a tank of spice gas
Prescience
Pre-born awareness
re-stored Ghola memories
Man symbioses with a huge worm
et cetera

... all of these subjects are from the realm of science fiction and don't have a single thread in nowadays science embedded. I figure that discussing these subjects is equally ridiculous?

[A Thing of Eternity]

This has gone almost to the level of the FTL debate over on DN

Thank you for the compliment

Please don't take it personally, I was just pointing out that it's (it being: "who knows what they might discover in the future") the same argument Byron was using to justify the magic FTL drives in the Legends series. That argument works fine if we're talking about things like exotic matter, or metaphysics, it doesn't work very well, IMO, in discussions where we have a pretty firm understanding of whether or not a thing is possible.

If I hadn't said it then it would still be true, so lay off on the messenger.

"Who knows what they might discover in the future" is not a valid argument for something which as far as all respectable modern science is concerned is impossible. I',m with Chigger on this one, but I have a feeling we're going to have to let this argument go lest we all beat each other senseless.

If we have to believe that OM might one day turn out to exist then all we can really base it on is some not-yet-made-up metaphysical soul of the universe and/or metaphysical hive mind of humanity type ideas. There is simply no physical way for it to be possible, regardless of whether or not we know everything about DNA yet. There just isn't room for that kind of data, and there is a limit to how compressed data can be while still being coherent, and there is a limit to "where" that info could be theoretically stored in the physical realm

Obviously we can't 100% disprove that it might one day be discovered that we store our minds in some non-corporeal realm and later generations can access that, but we can't 100% disprove anything, so that's kind of a ridiculous argument, though I can see why it is a necessary one if you’re the kind of person who needs to rationalize everything in an SF novel (I’m usually that kind of person myself, but I’ve learned to let this one go because FH is a strong enough writer that he’s allowed to step outside of reality IMO).

I never claimed it to be a valid argument. I never claimed it to be an argument at all, but an, to me at least, interesting subject of discussion. perhaps I should head back to Dumbnovels instead because my interests don't interest you enough?

This topic is plenty interesting to me, hence my involved participation. Subject of discussion - a discussion being one of us saying an idea of how OM might work, the others agreeing or disagreeing and stating why. If you wanted it to be an interesting subject of discussion then don't get offended when someone discusses it. What was I supposed to say "no I don't think that's the case, but I won't go into details of why"? That would be a pretty boring discussion.

I had assumed that I could point out the problems in the argument (or idea or whatever you want to call it if you don't want to call it an argument) without offending anyone. I see this wasn't the case, trust me, I'm not someone who enjoys offending people, and I'd normally apologize for it but I don't think taking offence was necessary in this case.

However, I also don't see "respected modern science" as a valid argument when we are discussing subjects like:

Folding space
floating in a tank of spice gas
Prescience
Pre-born awareness
re-stored Ghola memories
Man symbioses with a huge worm
et cetera

... all of these subjects are from the realm of science fiction and don't have a single thread in nowadays science embedded. I figure that discussing these subjects is equally ridiculous?

I agree that some of those things are outside of respected modern science, and I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. We were discussing whether or not OM was possible in regards to modern science. That was the whole point of the discussion!

I'm saying that if a group of us decide to sit down, like this, and discuss one of the aspects of Dune which does not work according to modern science that's a great discussion. If we decide to try and discuss that subject within modern science, like in this case, and one of us puts forth an idea that can be argued against using modern science then why wouldn't we do so? I love discussion these topics, but I'm not going to muzzle my discussions by never pointing out when someone says something that is simply incorrect because they might get offended.

No one acts that way towards me, and I definitely would not want them to. when I say something wrong I get called on it pretty quickly, and often enough with pretty strong language, a lot stronger than I used in this or my last post.

[Serkanner]

Like the mighty Chigger said: "Whatever"

[A Thing of Eternity]

Like the mighty Chigger said: "Whatever"

I see your whatever and I raise you one Bahumbug.

Well, if Duncan (the last) had memories of incarnations from which his body contained no cells, the information has to be stored somewhere else.

Agreed. Unless that was a fuck up by FH it is pretty persuasive evidence that he was trying to get away from OM as DNA info and into metaphysics. I could see him trying to do something like that to keep more in line with current scientific theory.

I don't think it was a fuck up, that point was made very clearly.

I wasn't sure how clear FH was on Duncan having memories he "shouldn't" so I put that bit in there just in case someone had evidence that FH didn't actually do that on purpose. It's been a while since I read those books. I thought there was a chance it might have been a reappearing arm type mistake.

Does FH actually address the problem in the books or does he leave it hidden for readers to dig out? I can't remember.

[Freakzilla]

It's left a mystery and as far as I can tell there are no clues given to figure it out from.

[inhuien]

The BT tinkering is at least suggestive, Of what that's where I'm stumped.