Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Oh give me a fucking break.

No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.

Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.

Baliset added me on MSN and I still have no idea why.

(And on-topic; I can buy the "She's a Missionaria Protectiva adept" explanation. The BG should have just handled things a bit better in who they used)

SandChigger wrote:Oh give me a fucking break.

No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.

Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.

Why is it when I ask a question, you have to take it to task to beat me over the head with it? I have not read Heretics and Chapterhouse. And It has been a while since DUNE, so I did not remember there being something, so I figured maybe if there was mention of it having happened, Frank said somethnig somewhere about it.

So I asked.

E. LeGuille wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Oh give me a fucking break.

No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.

Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.

Why is it when I ask a question, you have to take it to task to beat me over the head with it? I have not read Heretics and Chapterhouse. And It has been a while since DUNE, so I did not remember there being something, so I figured maybe if there was mention of it having happened, Frank said somethnig somewhere about it.

So I asked.

Well ... why discussing anything with you when you haven't read the books? So when you do ask questions its perfectly legit to stump your head for it BECAUSE you haven't read the books. It makes you look like an idiot.

E. LeGuille wrote:

Mandy wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Mandy wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

I know, that's why I said she didn't know what WoL was.

She did recognize it as poison as soon as she smelled it, though.

And a drug as soon as she drank some.

After thinking about this a little more, I imagine that Jessica did know about the risks of "passing within" while preggo. Perhaps the BG's ritual is kept secret from the uninitiated, and she certainly didn't know what the Fremen ritual would consist of, but horror stories about "abominations" should be known by everyone (in the BG), especially someone as well connected as Jessica. Mohiam's reaction the first time she laid eyes on Alia was pretty dramatic, and her words lead me to believe that Jessica probably did know and chose to go through with it anyway. Kinda makes her abandonment of Alia even worse.

Woah, that makes me wonder now: Are there ever any mentions of this happening before? Because before Alia, I don't remember there being an abomination specifically mentioned? Perhaps it was more a theory among the sisterhood, but what other methods would there have been to cause an abomination?

No, you're right. They never mention anyone specifically by name, but it is implied in Mohiam's reaction to Alia in Dune. They'd need to experience it firsthand to be so afraid of it, don't you think? It just wasn't important to the story to explore previous instances, or FH would have written them in. I don't have my copy of Children of Dune handy, but I know Leto and Ghanima discussed the abomination problem before they played the mother/father game. I'll look it up tomorrow.

Regarding Abominations case, I remember a scene in CoD when Alia "prevents" the Twin about "what they (the Sisterhood) do to the ones like us" which means the preborn have existed since the BG foundation.

Regarding Jessica's knowledge, it's never mentionned clearly. During its discussion with Mohiam, it is said she disobeyed the order, and I remember (I haven't my books around) Mohiam reacts haughtily ("do you were proud of yourself enough to believe you might bear the KH". Do not forgive the fact that there were some men Gom Jabbardized before Paul ("they tried and all died"), included Fenring.
So, Jessica probably didn't know all about this, but she loved her Duke enough to desobey an order (have a girl) and proud enough to test her son.
Furthermore, if she knew her accurate role in this, she would have not wait more than 15/16 years (from Paul's birth to Alia's) to bear the supposed mother of the KH.

So, according to me, she didn't know who she supposed to be. But her love for her Duke and her pride drove her to bear Paul instead of Alia.

Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.

Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.

redbugpest wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them ....

Apeseed?

Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that [snip]

I'm sorry, but you've shown yourself to be pretty much ignorant when it comes to things both Dune and even McDune, and since your insights rarely go beyond the shallowly obvious, as here, thanks but no thanks.

(Have I told you to fuck off yet today? Oh, right, I have. )

redbugpest wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.

Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.

1st point: Good pest! (Except for SP.)

2nd point: No. Jessica gave in to the instinctive to produce life when in danger of soon losing her own. She mentions this specifically in Dune. What you prefer has no bearing on this one. In fact, the first point you made is probably why Jessica wasn't ordered (as far as we know) to immediately have another child. Having their precious genes spread about was likely something the Sisterhood didn't want (until they were out of their hands of course, then they wanted them badly enough).

redbugpest wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.

Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.

WRONG!

Paul and Jessica in the desert:

This is the way it had to be, Leto, she thought. "A time of love and a time
of grief." She rested her hand on her abdomen, awareness focused on the embryo
there. I have the Atreides daughter I was ordered to produce, but the Reverend
Mother was wrong: a daughter wouldn't have saved my Leto. This child is only
life reaching for the future in the midst of death. I conceived out of instinct
and not out of obedience.

Serkanner wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.

Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.

WRONG!

Paul and Jessica in the desert:

This is the way it had to be, Leto, she thought. "A time of love and a time
of grief." She rested her hand on her abdomen, awareness focused on the embryo
there. I have the Atreides daughter I was ordered to produce, but the Reverend
Mother was wrong: a daughter wouldn't have saved my Leto. This child is only
life reaching for the future in the midst of death. I conceived out of instinct
and not out of obedience.

I stand corrected on that point.

Serkanner wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.

Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.

WRONG!

Paul and Jessica in the desert:

This is the way it had to be, Leto, she thought. "A time of love and a time
of grief." She rested her hand on her abdomen, awareness focused on the embryo
there. I have the Atreides daughter I was ordered to produce, but the Reverend
Mother was wrong: a daughter wouldn't have saved my Leto. This child is only
life reaching for the future in the midst of death. I conceived out of instinct
and not out of obedience.

That's what I was thinking of.

SandChigger wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

That would have only apeseed them ....

Apeseed?

It's been getting worse hasn't it?

Oh, whatever!

I get this Jason & the Argonauts stop-action animation vibe, only instead of skeleton warriors when you sow the dragon's teeth, you get fuzzy preeq monkeys running amok and flinging poopoos.

(Yes, I have been asleep and dreamt in Technicolor. )

(Jet Lag - The Legal High!!)

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

Yes, it would (I guess)!
That's why she cannot be acknowledged about her role : how could she threat such a "beautiful" program whereas bearing a girl was so simple?! Hugh, it would be unbelievable... she could be aware of her role...

At least not initially.

(And who are you calling "Hugh"? )

inhuien wrote:(Jet Lag - The Legal High!!)

OH YEAH!

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?

Yeah I was thinking that too, but then I saw a quote in another thread that said the BG had ordered her to have only daughters. So I think it was having a son at all that upset them.

lotek wrote:Irulan received a lighter BG training and she was the daughter of the Emperor, she probaby wouldn't have survived a wild Agony like Jessica did.

I thought Irulan didn't get the greater training because she wasn't as bright or naturally gifted.

Freakzilla wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

But what Mandy said is basically right, Jessica didn't realize what it was until it was litterally right under her nose.

She new it was a poison though and that it would cause an abomination. Poison is a part of the passage into other memories. And the Fremen had a Reverend Mother. She's a bright woman.

Ooow, I know! Maybe as another little FU BG she decided she'd continue her heretical ways by creating an abomination as well as the more than KH. Take that!