Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

This topic is for discussion of the character Jessica, the concubine of Duke Leto I. Bring up anything you like, or work off my discussion-segue below.


Why did Jessica know about the Kwisatz Haderach breeding program? I would imagine such a universe-encompassing conspiracy would be known only to the Mother Superior and those in high positions. Jessica doesn't appear to be anything but a breeder. The very fact that she was allowed to stay on as Paul's mother, when most BG have their children removed, seems strange to me.

When RM Mohiam accuses Jessica of hoping to bear the KH, Jessica simply states that she "saw the possibility". Well, why would a breeder know? If she didn't know about the project, then she *might* not have so readily born a son. Problem solved.

Redstar wrote:Jessica doesn't appear to be anything but a breeder.

Jessica is a Missionaria Protectiva adept.

She was adept at playing religion to her advantage? I would think that'd be a talent all BG would possess. I'm not saying that Jessica wasn't important (quite the contrary; she may have been selected to undergo the Agony after her role as [female child's] mother was fulfilled), but at this moment her primary role was as breeder.

Any skill at other areas of BG expertise can be chalked up to "BG are talented", and that acolytes are taught a variety of subjects before their final role is chosen.

Redstar wrote:She was adept at playing religion to her advantage? I would think that'd be a talent all BG would possess. I'm not saying that Jessica wasn't important (quite the contrary; she may have been selected to undergo the Agony after her role as [female child's] mother was fulfilled), but at this moment her primary role was as breeder.

Any skill at other areas of BG expertise can be chalked up to "BG are talented", and that acolytes are taught a variety of subjects before their final role is chosen.

I didn't chose the word "adept", FH did.

"Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the Bene
Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not escaped you
-- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how you were
trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of the Panoplia
Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion threatens
us all."
~CoD

a·dept
n. (ād'ěpt')
A highly skilled person; an expert

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Face it, even to BG standards, Jessica was expertly trained.

then the question would be why was she so trained?
Because of her role in the breeding program, because she was destined to be in a position of power by her joining a Great House like the Atreides?(or both)


Irulan received a lighter BG training and she was the daughter of the Emperor, she probaby wouldn't have survived a wild Agony like Jessica did.

I don't think the BG took people in lightly, I doubt there was any such thing as a BG who was considered unimportant, or who wasn't the absolute cream of the crop and very well trained and educated (or at least in the process of being well trained and educated).

Irulan and other daughters of royalty were sent to the BG as a finishing school. Jessica wasn't just a breeder preserving stock, nor was she just a royal concubine. She was the intended grandmother of the Kwisatz Haderach which meant she was of exceptional genetic stock herself. I'm sure the main reason for her high level of training was preservation of her own life and that of her offspring.

I always wondered why she didn't know what would happen to her unborn child when she drank the WoL. You'd think even acolytes would hear rumors about "Abominations".

Mandy wrote:I always wondered why she didn't know what would happen to her unborn child when she drank the WoL. You'd think even acolytes would hear rumors about "Abominations".

She did. She did it for Paul.

Freakzilla wrote:

Mandy wrote:I always wondered why she didn't know what would happen to her unborn child when she drank the WoL. You'd think even acolytes would hear rumors about "Abominations".

She did. She did it for Paul.

Really? I know she did it for Paul, but I thought she was unaware of the danger to her unborn child. I could definitely just have missed a passage though where it shows that she knew.

Freakzilla wrote:

Redstar wrote:She was adept at playing religion to her advantage? I would think that'd be a talent all BG would possess. I'm not saying that Jessica wasn't important (quite the contrary; she may have been selected to undergo the Agony after her role as [female child's] mother was fulfilled), but at this moment her primary role was as breeder.

Any skill at other areas of BG expertise can be chalked up to "BG are talented", and that acolytes are taught a variety of subjects before their final role is chosen.

I didn't chose the word "adept", FH did.

"Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the Bene
Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not escaped you
-- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how you were
trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of the Panoplia
Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion threatens
us all."
~CoD

a·dept
n. (ād'ěpt')
A highly skilled person; an expert

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Face it, even to BG standards, Jessica was expertly trained.

I never said Jessica was an idiot, so not sure why you're pulling out the quotations and definitions to tell me something I already know. The BG would obviously want the best in their aims for the KH, so regardless if Jessica had talent or not her primary purpose is as a breeder. (Note that pretty much everyone breeds at one point in their BG-career, so I'm not saying this is her function-for-life)

I'm just wondering why they told the aimed grandmother of the Kwisatz Haderach that she was going to be the grandmother. They could have told her once it was all over, she had taken the Agony and joined the upper-ranks as a hero, but instead they chose to tell her in the very beginning, when she was simply a breeder and royal concubine.

Maybe it just made a better into chapter to Dune if she already knew about it and knew she was supposed to have had a daughter. Better drama.

If we really want to analyze it (which we might as well seeing as this is a site dedicated to such ) then I guess we could say that most of the BG were informed of the KH project, which makes sense seeing as it (at that time) was their main purpose/project. As such, even if they hadn't told Jessica she was to be the grandmother of the KH, she would have figured it out anyways, being well breifed on the whole situation it would have been fairly obvious to her that she was going to be birthing someone close to the KH - so the rest of the BG would have no reason NOT to tell her.

Hows that?

I'd then have to ask why anyone on Jessica's level would know enough to tell her. The BG number in the thousands/millions, and are orchestrating a conspiracy to control galactic politics through basically a messiah. I should think they'd want to keep that information relegated to at least only those that had undergone the Agony and would fully realize the importance of it all. Otherwise it leaves room for silly little girls wanting to breed messiahs out of pride and not realizing the repercussions.

Fair enough - that leaves us with the options of:

A: FH had a good reason for why the BG would be giving info to Jessica about this. I can't think of anything other than that the BG simply did not think it was necessary to keep it a secret from lower members, and you are right, that does seem a wee bit lax on security for the BG.

B: FH didn't think about why Jessica would know, or he did, but didn't think it was important enough to convey to the readers. The story felt better to him with Jessica and Mohaim discussing it right at the beginning, and he didn't want to have Mohaim just telling Jessica about the KH project right then (take up to much room and spoil the later surprises), so he wrote it that she already knew. This also adds more drama to the Jessica character and her love for the Duke - because she didn't JUST go against an order to have a daughter, she knowingly went against the BG MASTERPLAN for this man because she loved him so much.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Mandy wrote:I always wondered why she didn't know what would happen to her unborn child when she drank the WoL. You'd think even acolytes would hear rumors about "Abominations".

She did. She did it for Paul.

Really? I know she did it for Paul, but I thought she was unaware of the danger to her unborn child. I could definitely just have missed a passage though where it shows that she knew.

She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia. By the time they brought the WoL to her, she'd decided there was no turning back, even though she sensed danger. I guess that's a good reason for her not knowing what would happen to Alia, she didn't know what was happening until it was too late.

Why would Jessica require to know about the Kwisatz Haderach, apart from the fact that she was intended to be the Grand Mother was also her direct involvement in it's training, protecting and nurturing of it's Mother.

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

Yes, before that there were "other ways". It is transmuting the poison that makes OM accessible. The spice aspect of it was bonus.

Jessica felt herself torn between duty to her unborn child and duty to Paul.
For Paul, she knew, she should take that spout and drink of the sack's contents,
but as she bent to the proffered spout, her senses told her its peril.
The stuff in the sack had a bitter smell subtly akin to many poisons that
she knew, but unlike them, too.

...

Jessica saw the slave cribs on Bela Tegeuse down that inner corridor, saw
the weeding out and the selecting that spread men to Rossak and Harmonthep.
Scenes of brutal ferocity opened to her like the petals of a terrible flower.
And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after Sayyadina--first
by word of mouth, hidden in the sand chanteys, then refined through their own
Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak . . . and now
developed to subtle strengthen Arrakis in the discovery of the Water of Life.

...

"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There are
other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but once they've
used the spice liquor, the others no longer work."
~Dune

But what Mandy said is basically right, Jessica didn't realize what it was until it was litterally right under her nose.

Freakzilla wrote:Jessica didn't realize what it was until it was litterally right under her nose.

a bit like the BG with Paul?

So Jessica would have known of the potential path for her son because she held a rank high enough to justify that knowledge?

lotek wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:Jessica didn't realize what it was until it was litterally right under her nose.

a bit like the BG with Paul?

So Jessica would have known of the potential path for her son because she held a rank high enough to justify that knowledge?

Jessica was in the Missionaria Protectiva. This would have included engineering religions to prepare for a coming messiah, who would be the KH. It wouldn't make sense NOT to tell her.

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

I know, that's why I said she didn't know what WoL was.

Mandy wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

I know, that's why I said she didn't know what WoL was.

She did recognize it as poison as soon as she smelled it, though.

Freakzilla wrote:

Mandy wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

I know, that's why I said she didn't know what WoL was.

She did recognize it as poison as soon as she smelled it, though.

And a drug as soon as she drank some.

After thinking about this a little more, I imagine that Jessica did know about the risks of "passing within" while preggo. Perhaps the BG's ritual is kept secret from the uninitiated, and she certainly didn't know what the Fremen ritual would consist of, but horror stories about "abominations" should be known by everyone (in the BG), especially someone as well connected as Jessica. Mohiam's reaction the first time she laid eyes on Alia was pretty dramatic, and her words lead me to believe that Jessica probably did know and chose to go through with it anyway. Kinda makes her abandonment of Alia even worse.

Mandy wrote:Kinda makes her abandonment of Alia even worse.

True. I think Alia was an emberassment to her among her sisters and part of the reason she temporarily left the sisterhood, and why when she went back, they sent her to Arrakis to attempt to fix things.

Mandy wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Mandy wrote:

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.

I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?

I know, that's why I said she didn't know what WoL was.

She did recognize it as poison as soon as she smelled it, though.

And a drug as soon as she drank some.

After thinking about this a little more, I imagine that Jessica did know about the risks of "passing within" while preggo. Perhaps the BG's ritual is kept secret from the uninitiated, and she certainly didn't know what the Fremen ritual would consist of, but horror stories about "abominations" should be known by everyone (in the BG), especially someone as well connected as Jessica. Mohiam's reaction the first time she laid eyes on Alia was pretty dramatic, and her words lead me to believe that Jessica probably did know and chose to go through with it anyway. Kinda makes her abandonment of Alia even worse.

Woah, that makes me wonder now: Are there ever any mentions of this happening before? Because before Alia, I don't remember there being an abomination specifically mentioned? Perhaps it was more a theory among the sisterhood, but what other methods would there have been to cause an abomination?