Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I was thinking about this today and how it related to the tau orgy, wherein the Fremen are somehow aware of each other in their minds. This is strikingly similar to the ideas Frank expressed about the human species as an organism and the Avata in Pandora. As the spice amplified this awareness, perhaps it is necessary as part of the maturation of the 'humanity' organism i.e. it is more aware of itself as a whole.

Hmmm...i wondered if the Net was also an extension of that, but we could only see it from Duncan's eyes...what if more people (other than Marty and Daniel) could access that and the impact on the GP?

Rakis wrote:

I was thinking about this today and how it related to the tau orgy, wherein the Fremen are somehow aware of each other in their minds. This is strikingly similar to the ideas Frank expressed about the human species as an organism and the Avata in Pandora. As the spice amplified this awareness, perhaps it is necessary as part of the maturation of the 'humanity' organism i.e. it is more aware of itself as a whole.

Hmmm...i wondered if the Net was also an extension of that, but we could only see it from Duncan's eyes...what if more people (other than Marty and Daniel) could access that and the impact on the GP?

Indeed this does remind one of both the Net and Duncan's Amazing Memory, although there are, I'm sure, alternate explanations for both...

SwordMaster wrote:It is nice to wonder and question the motives of the BG there were a secret group with plans within plans. Im sure FH left it that way for this reason.

Still I like to ask real dune folks for their opinions...

Does Teg mention his own opinion on the sisterhood and their goals?

Yeah, in the 4th chapter of Heretics.

Seraphan wrote:Yeah, in the 4th chapter of Heretics.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=246

SandChigger wrote:The spice or the sandtrout or the worms seem somehow connected with the survival of the species at some point in the future, because when Leto idly toys with the idea of throwing himself off the top of his tower in the Sareer, far from any source of water for the sandtrout, he feels the Golden Path winking in and out of existence.

Of course, it could also be that some later necessary event in the establishment of the GP would be prevented by his death at that particular point in time.

Another mystery.

I always thought that, if he died away from water the planet would never return to it's desert origin and the famines times (along with the subsequent Scattering) would never happen.

Seraphan wrote:

SandChigger wrote:The spice or the sandtrout or the worms seem somehow connected with the survival of the species at some point in the future, because when Leto idly toys with the idea of throwing himself off the top of his tower in the Sareer, far from any source of water for the sandtrout, he feels the Golden Path winking in and out of existence.

Of course, it could also be that some later necessary event in the establishment of the GP would be prevented by his death at that particular point in time.

Another mystery.

I always thought that, if he died away from water the planet would never return to it's desert origin and the famines times (along with the subsequent Scattering) would never happen.

He does mention his concern about not dying near water.

Il take Teg's word on what the BG is all about.

Seraphan wrote:

SandChigger wrote:The spice or the sandtrout or the worms seem somehow connected with the survival of the species at some point in the future, because when Leto idly toys with the idea of throwing himself off the top of his tower in the Sareer, far from any source of water for the sandtrout, he feels the Golden Path winking in and out of existence.

Of course, it could also be that some later necessary event in the establishment of the GP would be prevented by his death at that particular point in time.

Another mystery.

I always thought that, if he died away from water the planet would never return to it's desert origin and the famines times (along with the subsequent Scattering) would never happen.

I don't think that's it - Dune being a dessert or not shouldn't really have any impact on the famine times or the scattering.

I don't know why the worms needed to return though.

Assuming we've established that spice is essential, then the worms' return allows many planets to undergo the terraforming Dune must once have undergone; this will make spice abundant and removes this resource from any one power.

Maybe that's why the BG were essential... to scatter the worms.

And that would not have happened if the HM didn't came back to the Old Empire and so on...all of this part of the GP...

...which all makes me wonder if the GP wasn't just a prescient trap on a grander scale.

Freakzilla wrote:...which all makes me wonder if the GP wasn't just a prescient trap on a grander scale.

But wasn't the Scattering a way to end the trap? Or maybe just a tool to push the BG and others to, what, ultimately create an infinite amount of spice ?...

Freakzilla wrote:Maybe that's why the BG were essential... to scatter the worms.

Perhaps, but I think the return of the worms would have eventually led to their expansion, now that it is better known that the sandtrout vector is the environmental stabiliser.

Perhaps the Golden Path is some sort of prescient trap (although I have misgivings about calling it prescient) but if so then instead of acting like a converging lens, as Paul used prescience, Leto set it up so that the future was diverging and the Siona gene ensures that no-one can completely undo that.

I don't know if the Bene Gesserit are necessarily part of Leto's vision (remember that he cannot see individuals, only their ripples) as the writing on the wall seems to indicate that they could lose their position as a major mover of humanity, but they sure are helpful in fulfilling his ideas. They are near what they should be but are still far away during his reign. I reckon the reintroduction of love is what they needed and what Leto hated them for losing (they have a chance at what he couldn't have and rejected it).

Im not sure Im convinced they wanted to "spread" the worms, the more i think of it and reading and re reading the chapter posted a few posts back, I would have to say they just wanted some form of power and influence and it is as simple as that

SadisticCynic wrote:They are near what they should be but are still far away during his reign. I reckon the reintroduction of love is what they needed and what Leto hated them for losing (they have a chance at what he couldn't have and rejected it).

Interesting...

SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure Im convinced they wanted to "spread" the worms, the more i think of it and reading and re reading the chapter posted a few posts back, I would have to say they just wanted some form of power and influence and it is as simple as that

I think it was more a desperate gamble for BG survival.

Freakzilla wrote:

SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure Im convinced they wanted to "spread" the worms, the more i think of it and reading and re reading the chapter posted a few posts back, I would have to say they just wanted some form of power and influence and it is as simple as that

I think it was more a desperate gamble for BG survival.

Agreed, that's why I don't think the Bene Gesserit were somehow meant to spread the worms.

Freakzilla wrote:

SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure Im convinced they wanted to "spread" the worms, the more i think of it and reading and re reading the chapter posted a few posts back, I would have to say they just wanted some form of power and influence and it is as simple as that

I think it was more a desperate gamble for BG survival.

yeah I dig that for sure.

I wonder if FH intended the BG to be thought of as "good guys" or "bad guys"

Something in between? I know FH did not have good and bad, in a clear cut way, but HoD does have the feel the BG are good and the HM are bad, for example.

SwordMaster wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SwordMaster wrote:Im not sure Im convinced they wanted to "spread" the worms, the more i think of it and reading and re reading the chapter posted a few posts back, I would have to say they just wanted some form of power and influence and it is as simple as that

I think it was more a desperate gamble for BG survival.

yeah I dig that for sure.

I wonder if FH intended the BG to be thought of as "good guys" or "bad guys"

Something in between? I know FH did not have good and bad, in a clear cut way, but HoD does have the feel the BG are good and the HM are bad, for example.

Maybe more along of good guys...that's what i understand from Leto's message to the BG about pursuing "Noble purposes"...

The Bene Gesserit seem to demonstrate humanity more than anything else, except they were missing (perhaps denying is better) love and tried to extricate themselves from the flow of mankind - impossible to remain human and yet be like this.

I think what makes us warm to them is this undercurrent of human society at... well I don't want to say best, but you know what I mean .

The Honoured Matres however display very animalistic qualities, quite unlike the human condition described in the first chapters of Dune (gom jabbar event etc).

No question that in HoD Ordade is the protagonist. Although Teg sort of takes over towards the end as protagonist!

Jessica is also a fairly "good"

I think it's implied that the BG have the right ideas, but nobody's perfect.

Freakzilla wrote:I think it's implied that the BG have the right ideas, but nobody's perfect.

Yeah, Miles Teg's opinion of them keeps us in the "no heroes" zone...

It is fascinating that after recognising he is a tool of the Sisterhood, Teg does not try to escape their control. Most people would react badly to such an awareness. Perhaps he knows such an effort is futile, or he is psychologically incapable of defying them to that extent at that time. Or maybe he thinks they are as has been said, on the right track, but not perfect.