HoD / ChoD: Do all the BG have the Siona Gene?

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HoD / ChoD: Do all the BG have the Siona Gene?

Postby Ghost » 26 Jan 2009 11:09

Heyas!

I have the spanish version of the books, reading chapterhouse i understand that all the BG (At least in Chapterhouse planet) had the Siona Gene.

That is why (among other reasons) ghola Duncan has to stay in the no-ship, so the Guild and the Honorated Matres can't learn Chapterhouse coordinates.

It is true or just a misunderstanding?

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Re: HoD / ChoD: Do all the BG have the Siona Gene?

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jan 2009 12:08

Ghost wrote:Heyas!

I have the spanish version of the books, reading chapterhouse i understand that all the BG (At least in Chapterhouse planet) had the Siona Gene.

That is why (among other reasons) ghola Duncan has to stay in the no-ship, so the Guild and the Honorated Matres can't learn Chapterhouse coordinates.

It is true or just a misunderstanding?


You are correct. Even Murbella had the Siona Gene. Scytale too, I believe.
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Postby Ghost » 26 Jan 2009 12:14

I cant remember that about Scytale, but i tought that he also cant leave the no-ship because he hasn't the gene or it was just for security?

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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jan 2009 12:15

Ghost wrote:I cant remember that about Scytale, but i tought that he also cant leave the no-ship because he hasn't the gene or it was just for security?


Odrade brought Scytale out for walks so he had to have had it. Yes, the no-ship was an actual prison for Scytale.
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Jan 2009 16:55

This is another example of Frank Herbert not being a math (or genetics?) whiz.

Unless people were doing some sort of gene therapy, there is simply no way a gene could have been transmitted naturally to every individual in a population as large as that we must assume exists in the Old Empire and Scattering at the time in question in just 1,500 years.

For every BG to have the gene, they would have to be screening their acolyte applicants (and their own offspring) for it and rejecting anyone without it.

That's the "reality" of it, whatever FH wrote in the books. ;)
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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jan 2009 17:46

I've done the math on that. Remember, Siona had nine daughters.

How many daughters did Odrade have, fourteen I think? Take that into consideration too.

Not every Bene Gesserit had the Siona Gene (that we know of), but the ones on Chapterhouse had to.
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Jan 2009 18:08

Is every human alive today descended from one woman who lived 1,500 years ago?

I remember you doing the math, but I forget what your assumptions were.

Did you assume every child in every generation was a daughter? Did every daughter have nine daughters? Did the general population reproduce as prolifically as the Bene Gesserit? That's simply untenable IMHO.

And every child survived long enough to reproduce? How likely would that be in the upheavals of the Famine Times/Kralizec and the Scattering?

(I have an idee the math is a lot more complicated than a simple geometric progression. Some kind of random probability function? :shock: Don't look at me: I'm a Humanities major! :P )
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Postby loremaster » 26 Jan 2009 18:37

Only about 10% of all human genes show any variation of sequence (are allelic). the rest are constitutive (there without any variation, copy number often >1)

So once a small population has been bred to contain this gene, introducing new individuals to this established population will quickly expand the population and yet maintain much of the original genetic makeup.

It's one of the cornerstone of population genetics.
It's also why killing everyone with recessive disorders would NOT remove these disorders from the population.

And Chig. no-where does it say that everyone had it. Only select communities, and scattered individuals. its no more unmaintainable genetically than ashkenazi jew predisposition to breast cancer.

and RE: every one on earth descended.... possibly. The genetic idea of mitochondrial eve and y chromosome adam are back only as far as 50,000 years, so the MRCA (most recent common ancestor) of both is probably a lot closer than this.....1,500 maybe not, but within the same power. ( http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 092904.php )

Finally - how does scytale have the siona gene if he is a copy of the house messiah era sctyale?
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Jan 2009 21:17

loremaster wrote:And Chig. no-where does it say that everyone had it. Only select communities, and scattered individuals. its no more unmaintainable genetically than ashkenazi jew predisposition to breast cancer.

I was fairly sure there was no such explicit statement in the books. (Which makes sense, because it wouldn't make sense.)

From your link:

These more realistic models estimate that the most recent common ancestor of mankind lived as recently as about 3,000 years ago, and the identical ancestors point was as recent as several thousand years ago.

Within the same power, but both look greater than 1,500 to me. ;)

The results can also work backwards, into the future. According to Chang, "Within two thousand years, it is likely that everyone on earth will be descended from most of us."

The point here is that not everyone was stuck on the same little planet. Given the size of Leto's Empire, it seems entirely reasonable to me to suppose that there would have been groups Scattered who had no members with the gene.

Finally - how does scytale have the siona gene if he is a copy of the house messiah era sctyale?

He was "tampered with", obviously, since he wasn't an exact copy. (Messiah Scytale was a Face Dancer, not a Master, after all.)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jan 2009 11:09

I think I used two daughters per generation. I figured this would be conservative considering her genes would be in high demand by the Bene Gesserit, anxious to get their breeding program back from Leto. Also, BG can choose the sex of their offspring and have mostly daughters.

Anyway, just at two daughters the number grew huge near the end of that 1,500 years.

More than enough to populate Chapterhouse.
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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jan 2009 11:10

loremaster wrote:Finally - how does scytale have the siona gene if he is a copy of the house messiah era sctyale?
xxx


I'll answer that if you tell me why some of Duncan's cells have it and some don't.

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Postby inhuien » 27 Jan 2009 12:42

While it’s true that the Bene Gesserit normally chose to bear girls would their goal of propagating the Sonia gene not be better served if the had boys who could pumpy-pump without need to wait 9 months between birth.
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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jan 2009 12:47

inhuien wrote:While it’s true that the Bene Gesserit normally chose to bear girls would their goal of propagating the Sonia gene not be better served if the had boys who could pumpy-pump without need to wait 9 months between birth.


The Golden Path might be better served but not necessarily the BG.
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Postby Ghost » 27 Jan 2009 14:19

Why Didnt Leto saw the hand of Nayla / Duncan behind his death?
Clearly they haven't the Siona gene.

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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jan 2009 14:41

Ghost wrote:Why Didnt Leto saw the hand of Nayla / Duncan behind his death?
Clearly they haven't the Siona gene.


I often think about my final metamorphosis, that likeness of death. I know the
way it must come but I do not know the moment or the other players. This is the
one thing I cannot know. I only know whether the Golden Path continues or ends.

~Leto II

I think he chose not to so it would be a suprise. He liked suprises.
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Postby Omphalos » 27 Jan 2009 15:14

Freakzilla wrote:
Ghost wrote:Why Didnt Leto saw the hand of Nayla / Duncan behind his death?
Clearly they haven't the Siona gene.


I often think about my final metamorphosis, that likeness of death. I know the
way it must come but I do not know the moment or the other players. This is the
one thing I cannot know. I only know whether the Golden Path continues or ends.

~Leto II

I think he chose not to so it would be a suprise. He liked suprises.


He also probably did not want to be forewarned so that he would not reflexively stop it. He understood that at some time he was going to have to die. If he was aware of it ahead of time, he might have tried to stop it and screwed humanity up even more than he had to to guarantee the exodus.

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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jan 2009 15:50

I think he chose to die when he did. He practically told Siona what to do. Put her in charge of Nayla, the only person with a lasgun, changed the location to Tuono after Moneo told him he'd sent Siona and Duncan there.

Once Siona passed her test and Anteac scattered the INM and no-tech, he was ready to die, IMO.
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Postby Ghost » 27 Jan 2009 18:21

Freakzilla wrote:I often think about my final metamorphosis, that likeness of death. I know the
way it must come but I do not know the moment or the other players. This is the
one thing I cannot know. I only know whether the Golden Path continues or ends.

~Leto II

I think he chose not to so it would be a suprise. He liked suprises.


Well, there it says that he ''can't'' know, not ''shouldn't'' or ''don't want''


Freakzilla wrote:I think he chose to die when he did. He practically told Siona what to do. Put her in charge of Nayla, the only person with a lasgun, changed the location to Tuono after Moneo told him he'd sent Siona and Duncan there.

Once Siona passed her test and Anteac scattered the INM and no-tech, he was ready to die, IMO.


That is what i think too, even when Siona passed the test with his help (the love of Leto for Siona?), i believe that if Siona didnt had her ''no-gen'', Leto would let her die.

One thing i always notice when reading GEoD is that the road to Tuono (IIRC) is yellowish or golden, also the fumes of his chariot (the suspensors) are golden i like to think that because of those things the Golden path is named, he knew how he will die.

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Postby Crysknife » 27 Jan 2009 20:14

Freakzilla wrote:I think he chose to die when he did. He practically told Siona what to do. Put her in charge of Nayla, the only person with a lasgun, changed the location to Tuono after Moneo told him he'd sent Siona and Duncan there.

Once Siona passed her test and Anteac scattered the INM and no-tech, he was ready to die, IMO.


Yeah, I think that's why he told Nayla to do everything told to her by Siona with no questions asked. I think at this point Siona had become invisible to him so he needed Nayla to know exactly when the trigger would be pulled.
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Postby Frybread » 27 Jan 2009 20:17

Crysknife wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think he chose to die when he did. He practically told Siona what to do. Put her in charge of Nayla, the only person with a lasgun, changed the location to Tuono after Moneo told him he'd sent Siona and Duncan there.

Once Siona passed her test and Anteac scattered the INM and no-tech, he was ready to die, IMO.


Yeah, I think that's why he told Nayla to do everything told to her by Siona with no questions asked. I think at this point Siona had become invisible to him so he needed Nayla to know exactly when the trigger would be pulled.


And Nayla would have been visible in Leto's visions since she did not share the aims of Siona or Duncan, even though she was forced to obey.

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Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jan 2009 08:58

Frybread wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think he chose to die when he did. He practically told Siona what to do. Put her in charge of Nayla, the only person with a lasgun, changed the location to Tuono after Moneo told him he'd sent Siona and Duncan there.

Once Siona passed her test and Anteac scattered the INM and no-tech, he was ready to die, IMO.


Yeah, I think that's why he told Nayla to do everything told to her by Siona with no questions asked. I think at this point Siona had become invisible to him so he needed Nayla to know exactly when the trigger would be pulled.


And Nayla would have been visible in Leto's visions since she did not share the aims of Siona or Duncan, even though she was forced to obey.


Yes, Nayla was so loyal it even made Leto sick.

I think more important to Leto than being suprised was making sure he didn't die away from water.
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Postby Frybread » 28 Jan 2009 11:06

Freakzilla wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think he chose to die when he did. He practically told Siona what to do. Put her in charge of Nayla, the only person with a lasgun, changed the location to Tuono after Moneo told him he'd sent Siona and Duncan there.

Once Siona passed her test and Anteac scattered the INM and no-tech, he was ready to die, IMO.


Yeah, I think that's why he told Nayla to do everything told to her by Siona with no questions asked. I think at this point Siona had become invisible to him so he needed Nayla to know exactly when the trigger would be pulled.


And Nayla would have been visible in Leto's visions since she did not share the aims of Siona or Duncan, even though she was forced to obey.


Yes, Nayla was so loyal it even made Leto sick.

I think more important to Leto than being suprised was making sure he didn't die away from water.


You're right, since water would force the sandtrout from Leto's body, thereby starting a new spice cycle.


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