election day (United States)

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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Nov 2010 11:42

Freakzilla wrote:
I'm not sure about him not compromising. His "health care" reform was so slight that most of us up here don't even understand what changed. Sounds like he had to compromise quite a bit.


Mandating healthcare is unconstitutional.


How so? If it was wouldn't the bill have been shot down? And seriously, the step towards social healthcare was so small it almost didn't happen!
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 12:05

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
I'm not sure about him not compromising. His "health care" reform was so slight that most of us up here don't even understand what changed. Sounds like he had to compromise quite a bit.


Mandating healthcare is unconstitutional.


How so? If it was wouldn't the bill have been shot down?


The Supreme Court decides if laws passed by Congress are constitutional.

And seriously, the step towards social healthcare was so small it almost didn't happen!


For any law to be “constitutional”—it must first and foremost enjoy the support and consent of a majority of the governed, from which all U.S. government powers are derived.

Obama’s seizure of one-sixth of the US economy via the Health Care industry grab, does NOT enjoy the consent of the governed and on this basis alone, it is an unconstitutional law.

I don't know ANYBODY who wants government healthcare.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Nov 2010 12:19

Freakzilla wrote:Obama’s seizure of one-sixth of the US economy via the Health Care industry grab, does NOT enjoy the consent of the governed and on this basis alone, it is an unconstitutional law.

I don't know ANYBODY who wants government healthcare.


Well I guess it works out well for you that you didn't get gov healthcare and that Obama didn't seize control of the healthcare industry. :lol:

Seriously, from my understanding all he did was make some relatively minor adjustments to the system that already existed.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 12:43

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Obama’s seizure of one-sixth of the US economy via the Health Care industry grab, does NOT enjoy the consent of the governed and on this basis alone, it is an unconstitutional law.

I don't know ANYBODY who wants government healthcare.


Well I guess it works out well for you that you didn't get gov healthcare and that Obama didn't seize control of the healthcare industry. :lol:

Seriously, from my understanding all he did was make some relatively minor adjustments to the system that already existed.


Nancy Pelosi said we wouldn't know until it was passed... I still don't think they know.

If they'd only made minor adjustments to the EXISTING government healthcare systems (Veterans Medical, Medicare, Medicaid) I think people would have been a lot happier.

Cost:
$940 billion over ten years.

Deficit:
Would reduce the deficit by $143 billion over the first ten years. That is an updated CBO estimate. Their first preliminary estimate said it would reduce the deficit by $130 billion over ten years. Would reduce the deficit by $1.2 trillion dollars in the second ten years.

Coverage:Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
Health Insurance Exchanges:

The uninsured and self-employed would be able to purchase insurance through state-based exchanges with subsidies available to individuals and families with income between the 133 percent and 400 percent of poverty level.
Separate exchanges would be created for small businesses to purchase coverage -- effective 2014.
Funding available to states to establish exchanges within one year of enactment and until January 1, 2015.
Subsidies:

Individuals and families who make between 100 percent - 400 percent of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) and want to purchase their own health insurance on an exchange are eligible for subsidies. They cannot be eligible for Medicare, Medicaid and cannot be covered by an employer. Eligible buyers receive premium credits and there is a cap for how much they have to contribute to their premiums on a sliding scale.

Paying for the Plan:
Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).
Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.
Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.
Medicare:

Closes the Medicare prescription drug "donut hole" by 2020. Seniors who hit the donut hole by 2010 will receive a $250 rebate.

Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.
Medicaid:

Expands Medicaid to include 133 percent of federal poverty level which is $29,327 for a family of four.

Requires states to expand Medicaid to include childless adults starting in 2014.

Federal Government pays 100 percent of costs for covering newly eligible individuals through 2016.

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid.
Insurance Reforms:

Six months after enactment, insurance companies could no longer denying children coverage based on a preexisting condition.

Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.

Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26th.
Abortion:

The bill segregates private insurance premium funds from taxpayer funds. Individuals would have to pay for abortion coverage by making two separate payments, private funds would have to be kept in a separate account from federal and taxpayer funds.
No health care plan would be required to offer abortion coverage. States could pass legislation choosing to opt out of offering abortion coverage through the exchange.
**Separately, anti-abortion Democrats worked out language with the White House on an executive order that would state that no federal funds can be used to pay for abortions except in the case of rape, incest or health of the mother. (Read more here)



Individual Mandate:
In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.

Employer Mandate:
Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.
Immigration:

Illegal immigrants will not be allowed to buy health insurance in the exchanges -- even if they pay completely with their own money.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby SandChigger » 04 Nov 2010 13:25

Freakzilla wrote:For any law to be “constitutional”—it must first and foremost enjoy the support and consent of a majority of the governed, from which all U.S. government powers are derived.

Uh, no, sorry, that is not what "unconstitutional" means. You just defined "unpopular".

I refrained from commenting on this earlier because IANAL, and especially NOT a lawyer specializing in constitutional law, but I do know enough as an American and a speaker of English to say that the above is bullshit. That's not what the word means, and it's not how the system works. Unconstitutional means something conflicts with what is established by the Constitution.

Now, it may very well be determined later that establishing a national system of health care is beyond the sphere of authority defined by the Constitution for the federal executive and legislative branches, I don't know/remember enough about the details to say. But you don't get to just declare something "unconstitutional" simply because a majority of people don't approve of it.

That's just FOX News-level bluster. It's perpetrating KJA-level violence on the language. ;)
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Nov 2010 13:40

Also, seeing as the majority of people voted the guy in, and Healthcare was one of his bigger issues, that kinda lends itself to the idea that the majority DO want healthcare reform doesn't it? Then again maybe they were just voting for him because the republican options were so terrible?
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 14:10

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:For any law to be “constitutional”—it must first and foremost enjoy the support and consent of a majority of the governed, from which all U.S. government powers are derived.

Uh, no, sorry, that is not what "unconstitutional" means. You just defined "unpopular".

I refrained from commenting on this earlier because IANAL, and especially NOT a lawyer specializing in constitutional law, but I do know enough as an American and a speaker of English to say that the above is bullshit. That's not what the word means, and it's not how the system works. Unconstitutional means something conflicts with what is established by the Constitution.

Now, it may very well be determined later that establishing a national system of health care is beyond the sphere of authority defined by the Constitution for the federal executive and legislative branches, I don't know/remember enough about the details to say. But you don't get to just declare something "unconstitutional" simply because a majority of people don't approve of it.

That's just FOX News-level bluster. It's perpetrating KJA-level violence on the language. ;)



You're right, that was a bad example.

con·sti·tu·tion·al
Function: adjective
1 : consistent with or authorized by the constitution of a state or society < constitutional rights>
2 : regulated by, dependent on, or ruling according to a constitution constitutional monarchy>
3 : of, relating to, or dealing with a constitution or its interpretation, formulation, or amendment constitutional convention> <constitutional lawyers> —con·sti·tu·tion·al·ly adverb Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 14:13

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Also, seeing as the majority of people voted the guy in, and Healthcare was one of his bigger issues, that kinda lends itself to the idea that the majority DO want healthcare reform doesn't it? Then again maybe they were just voting for him because the republican options were so terrible?


They thought he was the black messiah.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Eyes High » 04 Nov 2010 16:41

No, he was just more popular than McCain and the third parties didn't have enough exposure to have a fighting chance. The money equation should be removed from our presidential elections.

I'm getting sick of only those who have gazillions to spend on campaign exposure having any real chance of getting elected. It should be about the issues and not who has the most money.

Free adveristments for all who are running for public office. And give us the facts, not mud slinging!

Well that's my little rant for today.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 16:45

Yeah, mudslinging is just a way to dodge the issues.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Nov 2010 17:25

Mudslinging is terrible, it comes largely from these professional campaign managers you have down there, whose whole life is just going from election to election. It's been starting to get worse up here too, it's not so bad yet but especially on a federal level it isn't going to be long before our campaigns are as meaningless insult-fests as yours are. Sad times truly, and it'll likely only ever get worse not better.

I agree about the money thing, in the US it's essentially impossible for someone to even attempt to run without being stinking rich on top of having a lot of donations. (It was funny when Obama had to remind McCain how many houses he owned after McCain got it wrong... you've gotta be rich to forget how many houses you own!).
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Shaitan » 04 Nov 2010 19:16

Freakzilla wrote:Image

:(


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Re: election day (United States)

Postby SandChigger » 04 Nov 2010 19:36

(LOVE the new avatar, Eyes. :D )

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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Eyes High » 05 Nov 2010 04:56

SandChigger wrote:(LOVE the new avatar, Eyes. :D )


Thanks Chig
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby SandRider » 05 Nov 2010 15:28

Freak, you know better, and you know exactly what I'm talking about - we've been thru this a dozen times before -

whatever your opposition is to whatever action the Federal government is taking,
"it's unconstitutional" is not a rational or realistic rebuttal ...

sure, the constitution reads that the Supreme Court has the power to rule on the legitimacy of legislation
passed by the Congress, and advise the Executive of their ruling ....

and, as Andrew Jackson said: "The court has made its decision; now let them enforce it."

the Supreme Court ruled in 1903 that the 1895 federal income tax laws were unconstitutional ...
the result was the Congress amending the constitution in 1913 with the 16th Amendment ...

and let's not forget Federal President Lincoln disregarding the spirit of the constitution, the original
political basis for the Federal Union, and the first line of Declaration of Independence in January 1861,
when he declared secession to be insurrection .... suspended habeas corpus and arrested the Governor
of Maryland and the majority of the Maryland Legislature .... threatened to arrest the authorities of
the state of Delaware if they allowed a vote on secession ... completely up-ended the "balance of
power" principle .... &etc .... &etc ... &etc ....


the Federal Union of the United States of America is not, and has never been, a Federal Republic ...
it is, and has always been, by definition and practice, an oligarchy ....





and also, you know damn well the political platforms of the two parties completely switched sides and
flip-flopped in the early to mid 20th century, beginning with the swing to the Left by Northern Establishment
Democrats in the late 1920s & 30s, and the swing to the Right by the Southern Democrats in the late 40s
and into the 1950s .... so making observations like "there hasn't been this many Republicans in control in
Georgia since Reconstruction" is a willful mis-statement of the situation ....

the base Republican party membership during Reconstruction are today's Progressive Democrats,
and the Democrats who took control back in the late 1870s are today's Authoritarian Republicans ....
the same group of men have been in control of Georgia, with the short exception of the Reconstruction period,
from it's founding as a colony to last Tuesday .... (oligarchy)


and you've heard all this before, and you'll hear it again ... and again ... and again ...
until I break you of this insane notion that the Federal Government is, or has ever been,
guided by the laws of the constitution of 1879 .... and that there is any real difference in the
major political parties' leadership or actions ... the Federal Government has done, and always will do,
the bidding of the Robber Barons ... (oligarchy)
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Nov 2010 16:18

I think there SHOULD be an amendment if they want to make healthcare a right.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby SandRider » 06 Nov 2010 09:37

:facepalm-smiley:

*sigh*

an amendment to what?

the Federal government will only pass the healthcare legislation the pharmaceutical & insurance corporations will allow it to,
pending approval by the other corporations that will have to implement the plan ...

the Federal government will never pass the type of healthcare legislation passed in England, or other European nations; the reason
for this is that the Federal Government of the United States, unlike all the European nations, has never had to face the actual threat
of a communist revolution; the oligarchs of Europe realized they had to make certain (cosmetic) concessions to the citizens, or face
the very real possibility of going out like the White Russians ... all the crazy "progressive" social programs in France, f'instance, were
brought about during crises to placate the rebels ....

on the other hand, the oligarchs that control the Federal government of the United States have no qualms about busting heads, occupying
"sovereign" states, and killing hundreds of thousands of people to maintain control ....

all I'm saying, again, is that you, and most of the regular citizens, are looking at this the wrong way; unless you are in the 1% of
the ruling class, what you think, what you want, and how you vote don't mean shit ...

and, all in all, it's not that bad of a system; my only real complaint is the lying and willful mis-statements about the nature of the system
and the Nation ... modern America is an Expansionist Empire, with an entrenched bureaucratic class, bought, paid for, and trained by
corporate oligarchs .... and that's fine, let's just say so ...

the best you can do is keep your head down, realize that the system is a lie, work it to the best of your ability and according to your
own personal moral standards, try to be a decent, honest, and just person despite the society you inhabit, and amuse yourself until
you die ...
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Nebiros » 20 Aug 2012 07:00

I don't know where I will be in early November, but I've just decided that on election day and the day after I will make sure not to go online or watch TV. Now if I could just avert my eyes from newspapers.

I want to have somebody ask me "what is your reaction to Romney winning the election?" to which I will with all honesty say "Oh he won? I did not know that."

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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Aug 2012 08:12

Nebiros wrote:I don't know where I will be in early November, but I've just decided that on election day and the day after I will make sure not to go online or watch TV. Now if I could just avert my eyes from newspapers.

I want to have somebody ask me "what is your reaction to Romney winning the election?" to which I will with all honesty say "Oh he won? I did not know that."

If you don't tell them right away then how will your followers know what to think?
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Hunchback Jack » 07 Nov 2012 13:20

Not a single post yet on the result?

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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 14:28

OK, I'll go...

Do people just vote for the president and not congressmen? What good is it to re-elect Obama and leave him with the same, no... more republican Congress?

Now we'll have at least another two years of nothing getting done.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby lotek » 07 Nov 2012 14:53

From my point of view and what it's worth, I reckon anything but a guy who believes that book of mormon crap should ever be allowed to make decisions that will affect normal people.
So yeah, Obama !
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Serkanner » 07 Nov 2012 14:59

lotek wrote:From my point of view and what it's worth, I reckon anything but a guy who believes that book of mormon crap should ever be allowed to make decisions that will affect normal people.
So yeah, Obama !


Seconded.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 15:00

lotek wrote:From my point of view and what it's worth, I reckon anything but a guy who believes that book of mormon crap should ever be allowed to make decisions that will affect normal people.
So yeah, Obama !


IMO Mormon beliefs are no worse than talking snakes and alien-hybrid jewish zombie carpenters. I don't give a fuck who their imaginary friend is.
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Re: election day (United States)

Postby Nekhrun » 07 Nov 2012 15:33

Freakzilla wrote:OK, I'll go...

Do people just vote for the president and not congressmen? What good is it to re-elect Obama and leave him with the same, no... more republican Congress?

Now we'll have at least another two years of nothing getting done.

I have the same concerns, though the worst of the Teabaggers (Michelle Bachmann excluded) seem to have been replaced. I'm guessing that in two years the Dems will retake the house as well.
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