Occupy Protests

[Omphalos]

Yeah, whatever. Deny the obvious and purposefully ignore the inherent meaning and in no way spam like nature of the videos. They are all intimately related to the topic at hand, Dune, politics and Occupy Wallstreet. Oh, so now your complaining about too much information? Ok, should I come back with some chalk and a blackboard? Or how about a stick and rock?

Id like the stick and the rock, please. Think you can get me?

[A Thing of Eternity]

Yeah, whatever. Deny the obvious and purposefully ignore the inherent meaning and in no way spam like nature of the videos. They are all intimately related to the topic at hand, Dune, politics and Occupy Wallstreet. Oh, so now your complaining about too much information? Ok, should I come back with some chalk and a blackboard? Or how about a stick and rock?

Id like the stick and the rock, please. Think you can get me?

You do make a fairly good target... but I get the feeling you'd need quite a few rocks and sticks to be brought down my giant of a friend!

[Freakzilla]

Very hostile!

[A Thing of Eternity]

[Omphalos]

Yeah, whatever. Deny the obvious and purposefully ignore the inherent meaning and in no way spam like nature of the videos. They are all intimately related to the topic at hand, Dune, politics and Occupy Wallstreet. Oh, so now your complaining about too much information? Ok, should I come back with some chalk and a blackboard? Or how about a stick and rock?

Id like the stick and the rock, please. Think you can get me?

You do make a fairly good target... but I get the feeling you'd need quite a few rocks and sticks to be brought down my giant of a friend!

Naaaaah! I'm just a big ole pussy.

[Drunken Idaho]

It seems to me words like spam and "troll" are used in much the same way heretic, pagan, heathen or non believer was in the past. It's a way for people to attack others whose ideas or mere presence they don't like, and to encourage like minded people to mindlessly attack them.

...That's looking pretty deeply into it. A little too deep, actually. You weren't being attacked, and it's not like all of us are ganging up on you because you are pro-occupy or something.

Anyway...

Fake Occupy Wall Street TV Set Occupied by Real OWS Protesters

^ This was epic, and made for some great laughs on Twitter last night. I was watching the Livestream, and at one point a protestor asked one of the friendlier NYPD officers if the barricades scattered about were real or for the TV show. He laughed said he didn't know.

It was a little bit like Being John Malkovich.

[Drunken Idaho]

Oh, and at one point everyone started chanting "We want Law & Order" which of course is the name of the show that was filming.



I think creative stunts like this are important as this movement continues, and as the actual occupy-method becomes less practical, what with winter closing in and all.

[Serkanner]

They occupy "movement" is dead. It's still-born actually. This generation has no idea how to protest with their iPhone organized meetings.

[Freakzilla]

Yeah, I think I kinda was trying to imply that at the begining of this topic.

[Serkanner]

Yeah, I think I kinda was trying to imply that at the begining of this topic.

I agree with you. At first I thought it was a rather nice idea to protest the outrageousness of capitalism but then I realized you don't do it by fucking having camping vacations! Being in a tent with no decent food and in shitty weather was my common vacation when I was a child!

[Nekhrun]

Time will tell. I think it will ultimately amount to something productive and transformative. Probably not as much to my liking, but it will be progress.

[Drunken Idaho]

Arguments like "Look at the anti-capitalist kids with their iPhones and MacBooks!" are null and void because Occupy is not anti-capitalist. Again, turn off the fucking CNN. Same goes for "they don't even know what they're protesting about!" and "they're all just dirty hippies!" Not even back in September when this all got started were any of the above points valid.

And as sci-fi fans, I'm disappointed to hear you guys complain about what are, in essence, efficient & realtime tools of communication.

Does it attract an anti-capitalist contingent? Sure, but so does every union march in my city. The anarchists always show up with the "our fight is their fight" chant. There's also plenty of libertarians, veterans, and dozens of workers' unions allied with OWS.

On the whole, and this was clear from the beginning for anyone who was actually interested to learn, OWS is for reform. You want demands? Here two popular ones that I find the most important:

- Reinstate the Glass-Steagall act. This was a post-depression bill that made it so that banks had to be either consumer banks or investment banks. They couldn't do both. This act was repealed by Clinton in the 90's because everyone in Wa$hington thought it was a great idea, and that it would stimulate growth. As a result, the big banks could play their derivatives game with the securities they knew were total shit while at the same time over-leveraging themselves to the point of ruin. This led to the '08 crash and still has not been fixed. The joke of a financial reform bill by Dodd/Frank barely did anything to fix the main causes of the crash. It's still a boom-and-bust economy with behind-the-scenes hedge funds making bets off exotic products that you have to put a $1-million deposit down to even participate in. Are we all supposed to shut up and be happy about '08 now?

- Get Money Out Of Politics - You're probably aware of Citizens United, which is the supreme court ruling that establishes that a corporation is a person and can also give unlimited & anonymous campaign contributions to any elected official. I was ranting about it earlier today. This one is interesting because if corporations are people, they're certainly not American. These are multi-national corporations that send manufacturing to every other shitty country instead of keeping it in the US. Not to mention taking advantage of tax havens for a certain amount of years, then moving it back into the US to avoid a tax. Meanwhile, a recent study showed that 30 major corporations spent more on lobbying than they even paid in taxes. The more influence these "persons" have on politicians, the more power and advantages they can guarantee themselves. And when they make it so that real financial reform can't happen, the whole world economy goes to shit but those responsible don't get punished. What else does this mean? It means that your votes do not matter. You elect your representatives based on what they promise, they end up currying to the favour of their campaign contributors, and you get screwed. So what do you do when your votes don't matter? YOU PROTEST. Seriously, watch that Bernie Sanders video posted by meta guy. If campaign finance reform was made more fair, then every other issue would end up closer to how the majority of citizens feels, because politicians would be more accountable for the way they vote on those issues.

Now combine that, with items like the indefinite detention without due process, or FEMA emergency camps, or the Internet censorship bill. Are you fine with those issues being decided by those who have millions & nothing in common with the average American?

These reasons, among many others, are why people are protesting. Turn off your TVs, because the mainstream media LOVES to ask "what are they even protesting?" but they don't like to report it when they find out. And seriously, when you shit on Occupy like that, you make it more excusable in the mind of the authorities & law enforcement (not all of them of course) to use violence on protestors who are peaceful and not being a threat.

And OWS is not stillborn, or dead. The last big march they did over the Brooklyn bridge was around 30,000 people, which was the estimate from the police scanner, which many of the protestors were listening to on their hipster iPhones. OWS is bigger than ever, worldwide, and ubiquitous. With every major violence-filled crackdown, more sympathy is generated. Streisand effect, anyone?

And you know what else? The establishment is scared of OWS. Here's a nice Reuters article about a proposal from a lobbying firm to major banks on combating OWS, so that the movement does not affect policy:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... A420111119

Here's the proposal itself: http://info.publicintelligence.net/OWS-CLGC.pdf
There's one part saying they should figure out who is organizing and funding OWS. They must think it's like the Tea-Party or something.

But this is my favourite part:

It may be easy to dismiss OWS as a ragtag group of protesters but they have demonstrated that they should be treated more like an organized competitor who is very nimble and capable of working the media, coordinating third party support and engaging office holders to do their bidding. To counter that, we have to do the same.

[Mandy]

Drunken Idaho, are you a Glenn Greenwald fan? He has a great interview posted on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qlFjrgGqVA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[A Thing of Eternity]

They managed to get loads and loads of copycat protests going all over the world - there will be results from this. What those results will be, who knows.

[SandRider]

They occupy "movement" is dead. It's still-born actually. This generation has no idea how to protest with there iPhone organized meetings.

anything whatsoever that gets the Police in the streets
beating & arresting citizens get my full support ...

[D Pope]

- Reinstate the Glass-Steagall act. This was a post-depression bill that made it so that banks had to be either consumer banks or investment banks.

Well Done!

[Serkanner]

Blah blah blah blah

You are NOT telling anything new here. The same old bullshit has been going on for decades. The only difference being that these so-called protesters are now wealthier than any protester EVER before! I, like may others, can not afford weeks of sit-ins because I have to feed and shelter my family. The protesters that manage to occupy a location for days or weeks apparently lack this level of responsibility. I also was a protester in my younger days ( early eighties in Holland against the placement of nuclear bombs in our country for instance ) but those lasted a single day when hundreds of thousands made their voice heard ... and then went back to work.

Something else ... They need to start THINKING about what the fuck is going on in the rest of the world instead of complaining about the "injustice" in their own far-to-wealthy part of it.

Fight REAL poverty, fight REAL hunger, Fight REAL disease! And those are NOT to be found in our part of the world.

To close it up: I don't watch CNN. I don't watch TV. I make my mind up by reading newspapers, websites and discussions with others. So get down your high horse will you.

FUCK! ... an edit ... this is NOT just about the fucking USA! Perhaps YOU should turn on the rest of the world when forming an "opinion".

[Freakzilla]

You saying Americans don't help people in other countries? Apart from billions in foreign aid we donate billions to private international charities.

I understand your point but don't act like we don't do ANYTHING for anyone else.

[Drunken Idaho]

Blah blah blah blah

You are NOT telling anything new here. The same old bullshit has been going on for decades.

Not the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Citizens United is also a new development of the last couple years. Did you even read my post?

The only difference being that these so-called protesters are now wealthier than any protester EVER before! I, like may others, can not afford weeks of sit-ins because I have to feed and shelter my family. The protesters that manage to occupy a location for days or weeks apparently lack this level of responsibility.

Yeah, I'd say on average most occupiers probably don't have kids to take care of. I'd say a lot of them are politics-savvy twenty-somethings, with not much better to do than protest about the issues that matter to them. (EDIT: meant to mention that most of the early days of the similarly-nonstop protests in Tahrir Square were populated by younger Egyptian men & women concerned about their future) In addition to trying to represent a shrinking middle class (hence the 99%), they see that their own future is bleak and notice that a handful of extremely powerful individuals are quite content to keep it that way. Also, you are aware that unemployment is quite high in the US right now, yes? You might think of some of the more dedicated occupiers as a less-desperate Hooverville. However wealthy you think these protestors are, they take issue with the ultra-rich who have also had it better than ever.

I also was a protester in my younger days ( early eighties in Holland against the placement of nuclear bombs in our country for instance ) but those lasted a single day when hundreds of thousands made their voice heard ... and then went back to work.

Did it work?

Something else ... They need to start THINKING about what the fuck is going on in the rest of the world instead of complaining about the "injustice" in their own far-to-wealthy part of it.

Fight REAL poverty, fight REAL hunger, Fight REAL disease! And those are NOT to be found in our part of the world.

To close it up: I don't watch CNN. I don't watch TV. I make my mind up by reading newspapers, websites and discussions with others. So get down your high horse will you.

FUCK! ... an edit ... this is NOT just about the fucking USA! Perhaps YOU should turn on the rest of the world when forming an "opinion".

Again, I'm starting to think you stopped reading my post after a few paragraphs you didn't agree with. The whole world got affected by the carelessness of Wall Street (look at Greece, Spain, Iceland, etc), and the US government is an accessory to the crime by allowing themselves to be paid servants of these banks via both lobbying & look-the-other-way regulating (which is systemic in all big industry). They let it happen and didn't adequately punish anyone for the mess they made.

You think REAL poverty in the world will ever be addressed in these circumstances? I don't, that's why I continue to advocate for campaign finance reform. Once votes matter again, the rest of the issues will fall into place, including how to better the lives of the poorest nations in the world. Not saying this has to mean more foreign aid (although if the US spent less on wars, maybe they could explore that) but it could also mean doing more to prevent systemic problems like this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010 ... ria-spying

Come to think about it, protesting the placement of nuclear bombs also seems petty in comparison to REAL poverty, REAL hunger, REAL disease. Maybe YOU should get off YOUR high horse, and should have been worrying about the detonation of those bombs elsewhere... <-- Being sarcastic here, obviously. I think everyone fights their own fight. Just don't shit on someone else's fight because you don't like iPhones.

[Drunken Idaho]

Drunken Idaho, are you a Glenn Greenwald fan? He has a great interview posted on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qlFjrgGqVA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How could you tell? Glenn is one of the finest journo's out there at the moment. He seems to write about the right things, unlike most of the news media.

[Drunken Idaho]

You saying Americans don't help people in other countries? Apart from billions in foreign aid we donate billions to private international charities.

I understand your point but don't act like we don't do ANYTHING for anyone else.

In his defense, I don't think Serkanner was trying to say that. Most of that was directed at me. I think he's saying I should be content with fighting for those poverty issues within a rigged political system, instead of trying to fix said system.

[Freakzilla]

I know, it just pisses me off when people say the US doesn't care about other, less fortunate countries.

[SandRider]

one more time: you just GOTS to separate the US Federal Government (& Federal Military)
from the actual people who happen to inhabit the actual land occupied by that government (& military) ...

to me, a statement like "The US does/does not care about 'other' ("less fortunate") countries"
is meaningless horseshit-babble ... again, there just ain't no "us" in "US" ...

does the Federal Government "care" about other countries ("less fortunate" or not)?
well ... fuck, no ... the only concern the US Federal Government has is how it can use
its wealth, power & influence to exploit any and all other countries for its' own benefit ..
(and not saying this is "wrong", or even immoral - this is just the way Empires behave)

do the "people" care ?
the vast majority don't ... private humanitarian donations to various organizations spike
after any type of tragedy or catastrophe, but even then, totaling those amounts versus
earned income & GDP show that in real dollars, "Americans" care maybe a little over one percent ...

the outlays for the Federal Government's "foreign aid" is paltry at best,
taken as a percentage of the Federal Budget, but even then, the "aid" is
set with so many barbed hooks of coercion, any "goodwill" that might have
been generated is soon lost ...

[Serkanner]

You saying Americans don't help people in other countries?

That is not what I said. I was addressing DI's defence of the occupy movement which is in my opinion only focussed on the "horrible" situation in the Free West.

What I am sorry for is that I wandered of into the politics section of the forum. Nothing good will come from it.

[Serkanner]

I also was a protester in my younger days ( early eighties in Holland against the placement of nuclear bombs in our country for instance ) but those lasted a single day when hundreds of thousands made their voice heard ... and then went back to work.

Did it work?

Yes it did. The government decided to not place Cruise Missile installations and the nuclear warheads in our country after the massive protest in Amsterdam in 1985 where half a million people marched (out of a population of 14 million).