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    President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

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    President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 29 Sep 2010 17:54

    I’ve been reading through the Jacurutu posts in the POLITICS! Section for a bit, and I was pondering this question. Are the members of the Jacurutu of the opinion that the current President is a DUNE-veined leader, or just an imperfect leader in general? Usually the Orthodox Herbertarian view of DUNE-veined leaders is that they are flawed people, who become popular due to their charisma, and tend to wrap themselves into the public mythologies of society. I am of the opinion that the previous President and many of the Right-wing political speakers fit Herbert’s view of a flawed leader than the one we have, but I would rather that we view a DUNE-veined leader from the context of DUNE itself.

    Duke Leto and Paul Atreides are the templates for which I have in mind for the discussion on what makes a DUNE-veined leader. Leto, as a leader, cares more about his people than for the resources which everyone else craves. Rather than see himself as above his subjects, he works with them and tries to gain their trust. On the other hand, privately, he occasionally treats Jessica like his secretary, and is an emotional man. He also charges propaganda to be distributed to convince the people of Arrakis that he is the best ruler. Overall, in comparison to most rulers, he is an honorable man, and is superior to the other House leaders of the Landsraad, and probably in comparison to political leaders today (imagine someone caring more for their men than for oil, coal, or any other substance we depend on).

    Paul Atreides , as a man, is intelligent, well educated, very knowledgeable of the politics of his universe, well verse in the religion of his time, and well trained in the underground mystical arts. His heritage, however, is a serious problem, because he was the unintentional byproduct of a cultist messianic experiment, his body was predetermined for life-long drug addiction, and the circumstances behind his birth allow him to mix politics and religion on Arrakis for his own ends. He is an honorable Atreides, but he begins to rely on his visions of the future for guidance rather than his own intuition, and his final decision to bring about the jihad against the Landsraad is based more so upon his hunger for vengeance and retribution for the death of his father and son rather than upon the basis of foreseeing a positive future for the Fremen. His decision is of a personal concern, not a universal one.

    From these brief descriptions, I roughly see the elements of a DUNE-veined leader: a good and intelligent leader with personal faults, benevolent yet still operating by the rules of politics, someone who cannot separate their popular images from their actual ones, and who try to do their best, but always limited by some obstacle and knowledge which they are struggling to work around.

    Keep in mind, I am not trying to start a bunch of fights within the Jacurutu sietch. I would recommend not fighting for the possession of each other's wives, either. I’m just wondering whether President Obama is worthy of the criticism of a DUNE-veined leader, and if there is more to the leader’s story that we perceive to be flawed than we realize, like there is much more to Paul’s and Leto’s personal life than their popular or mythological images suggest. Let’s not say “He’s a mere man!” or “He’s Shaitain!” or “He became the Mahdi and had forgotten about us!” I’ll divert back to my question again: does Jacurutu consider him a DUNE-veined leader within the qualities I have listed, or are there other leaders that better fit the description? :geek:
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby lotek » 30 Sep 2010 06:07

    I don't know enough about Obama to answer that question
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby Superdog » 30 Sep 2010 16:20

    I don't think Obama is special, his policies are basically the same as Bush. The media narrative is different, but that's just smoke.
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby DuneFishUK » 30 Sep 2010 17:14

    A charismatic leader who's mistakes are multiplied by the people who blindly follow him?

    Sounds Herbertarian to me.


    I'm inclined to agree with Superdog though. Maybe he's more Feyd than Leto. (With Bush as Rabban) :shock:
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Sep 2010 17:23

    Oh gods, I'm gonna try and stay out of this one as much as possible!

    Lesser evil. No matter which leader you pick people will follow them blindly. Next election people will have more realistic expectations and may vote differently, or vote the same but have a better idea of what they'll get.
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby SandChigger » 30 Sep 2010 18:53

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:No matter which leader you pick people will follow them blindly.

    Or hate them blindly. ;)

    Next election people will have more realistic expectations and may vote differently, or vote the same but have a better idea of what they'll get.

    God loves you beautiful flowers.

    :lol:

    I'm just laughing at the idea of people being more realistic or smarter come next election time, not at you. :)
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby merkin muffley » 01 Oct 2010 05:09

    It's interesting to hear Frank Herbert say he was thinking about Kennedy when he wrote Paul. I never thought it made too much difference who the president was because it's always seemed there were forces a lot more powerful than any president's personal agenda. Until Bush became president. But I can't really say that this engorges my DUNE vein.
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby lotek » 01 Oct 2010 06:49

    SandChigger wrote:I'm just laughing at the idea of people being more realistic or smarter come next election time, not at you. :)


    Laughing with you not at you?
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 01 Oct 2010 11:19

    :lol: No, now that I read what I wrote I see laughing at me is the right thing to do. Not sure where my intelligence went for that statement... realistic... smarter... USA(Canada's the same way)... yikes.
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 01 Oct 2010 13:33

    I wasn't trying to make Obama special, I just felt that the reactions the President was receiving resonates with the reactions the leaders of DUNE received: either intense devotion or intense hatred. Actually its much more complicated in real life, but even if he is not probably as significant as other leaders, there are still people who want to messianize him or demonize him.

    So far, I haven't seen his mistakes being amplified by his followers, or if his previous charisma has caused more damage (though I am concerned about the Middle East as others in Jacurutu: LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!), but I am already getting a sense that the followers of Glen and Sarah are amplifying their mistakes, and that what charisma they supposedly have feels like they could do damage. It seems to me that fanatic followers are the new spice. "He who controls the mindset of the masses, controls the masses"

    As for Obama resembling Feyd... I don't think he has a floating fat sadistic gay uncle who has groomed him as the heir for some draconian nation, or spends time fighting in the gladiatorial arena killing slaves, sleeping with slave women at his spare time, and shouting at his enemies during a knife fight: "WHY PROLONG THE INEVITABLE? I WILL KILL YOU! I WILL KILL HIM!" Plus, I don't think he has a higher authority who he could borrow a poisoned blade from... I wouldn't say that he has the Beast Rabaan for his brother either... There is no equivalent for Piter Di Vries or Thufier Hawat as Obama's teachers.

    On the topic of Frank Herbert believing that Kennedy got the U.S. embroiled in Vietnam, didn't Eisenhower get the U.S. involved first long before Kennedy, when the French were trying to reclaim their colonies? Why didn't Frank Herbert consider that, or was Kennedy just his favorite model for flawed charismatic leaders?
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby DuneFishUK » 01 Oct 2010 17:02

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:As for Obama resembling Feyd... I don't think he has a floating fat sadistic gay uncle who has groomed him as the heir for some draconian nation, or spends time fighting in the gladiatorial arena killing slaves, sleeping with slave women at his spare time, and shouting at his enemies during a knife fight: "WHY PROLONG THE INEVITABLE? I WILL KILL YOU! I WILL KILL HIM!" Plus, I don't think he has a higher authority who he could borrow a poisoned blade from... I wouldn't say that he has the Beast Rabaan for his brother either... There is no equivalent for Piter Di Vries or Thufier Hawat as Obama's teachers

    I didn't mean Obama as Feyd in as in him being an evil Harkonnen. I meant in the sense of the Baron's plan - Arrakis was governed by Rabban - a hugely unpopular leader, but at the height of his unpopularity he was to be followed by Feyd: a saviour who could win the populace.

    "The Baron" would be the bankers, the special interests, etc that have (at the very least) forced Obama (who initially struck me as quite an ideological kind of person) to compromise.
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby SandRider » 03 Oct 2010 00:15

    I'm 62 and what the fuck is this ?
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby merkin muffley » 03 Oct 2010 02:05

    :lol:
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 05 Oct 2010 16:49

    merkin muffley wrote:It's interesting to hear Frank Herbert say he was thinking about Kennedy when he wrote Paul.

    Really? Damn it I missed this.
    Yeah, I agree. Mixing reality with a great story makes me want to chuck it at the people who think stories are suppose to reflect reality in its entirety - as though a perfectly great piece of writing is meant to be torn apart for peoples own little insane propaganda speeches. GRRRRR.
    But I can see that - Herbert definitely was aware of the b/s that proliferates politics.
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby strongman » 18 Dec 2010 08:54

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:As for Obama resembling Feyd... I don't think he has a floating fat sadistic gay uncle who has groomed him as the heir for some draconian nation, or spends time fighting in the gladiatorial arena killing slaves, sleeping with slave women at his spare time, and shouting at his enemies during a knife fight:



    Shouting at his enemies during a knife fight? Why?
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    Re: President Obama As A DUNE-Veined Leader?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 18 Dec 2010 21:05

    The shouting at his enemies in a knife fight was a reference to Sting's portrayal of Feyd. I only wrote that in, because I got confused when DuneFish UK said that the President was more like Feyd.

    Anyway, I think I should apologize to Jacurutu if I caused any minor mayhem with this topic (which seems rather stable in comparison to a few other political topics on the board). I don't think that I was flat out applying Frank Herbert's general views about flawed leaders to the President; I was really trying to apply the main characters of DUNE, Duke Leto and Paul Mua'dib, to the President, and asking if others could agree that he is good man who is complex and whose flaws befall any good leader, including Leto and Paul.

    To be truthful, I posted the topic, because I thought that a percentage of DUNE fans here were probably right-wing, and I was trying to get a sense of their views on present political matters without causing any direct confronation. I think I may have encountered a post which stated Obama was evil, so I was wondering if he was trying suggest something in the vein of the Leto II, the God Emperor of Dune. I was safely trying to see if any right-wing fans of DUNE were jumping to the conclusion that the President was a flawed charismatic leader in the Herbertarian sense. Instead of suggesting that, I just asked if Obama was a DUNE-veined leader, in that he might have some similarities with the first DUNE novel's primary leaders, Leto and Paul. I think my post caused a lot of confusion, and I'm sorry for it. Still, I'm that the political/literary discussion in this forum was not as bad as I thought it would be.

    I'm sorry too, SandRider, for confusing you with my post. The topic wasn't intended to cause worm sign of the likes of which even God has never seen (or at least the posting boards of Jacurutu).

    If my explanations of my topic seem confusing, again I apologize. I am not a very linear thinker, and at times, a feel almost as convoluted in reasoning as Jodorowsky himself. Hence, I am but an acolyte.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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