Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Serkanner » 04 Nov 2010 15:37

A Thing of Eternity wrote::lol: If Palin ever becomes President I'm going to shit my pants and never respect America again. Hopefully she has some sort of realization that she's an idiot and simply doesn't run.

Her daughter kinda scares me, bit umm... trailer trash I think is the term.


I felt that way after Bush got re-elected ... Voting Obama into the White House restored a bit of respect, but it's dwindling again rapidly. Of course I am only Euro Trash so what do I know.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Nov 2010 16:07

Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote::lol: If Palin ever becomes President I'm going to shit my pants and never respect America again. Hopefully she has some sort of realization that she's an idiot and simply doesn't run.

Her daughter kinda scares me, bit umm... trailer trash I think is the term.


I felt that way after Bush got re-elected ... Voting Obama into the White House restored a bit of respect, but it's dwindling again rapidly. Of course I am only Euro Trash so what do I know.


When Bush was re-elected I thought I was dreaming. I honestly didn't even remotely believe it at first, it seemed such a sure thing that he would be gone, such an impossibility that he would stay. It didn't really ever sink in I think, I just couldn't grasp it. It to me was as if a major country had elected a peice of lamp to be their president or something.... that's the best analogy I can come up with to explain just how impossible it seemed to me at the time.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 16:17

I LOVE LAMP!
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Nov 2010 16:31

Personally I'd love to see Arny as President. You'd have to get rid of that totally stupid law about Presidents having to have been born in the USA though (what a dumb law that is, if someone's born somewhere else but lives their entire lives there then of course they must be dangerous, but you could potentially have someone born in the US and raised somewhere else elected? (Legally, not likely obviously with the US's xenophobia)).

Wouldn't that be awesome though? It wouldn't even matter what his policies were.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Nov 2010 16:57

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Personally I'd love to see Arny as President. You'd have to get rid of that totally stupid law about Presidents having to have been born in the USA though (what a dumb law that is, if someone's born somewhere else but lives their entire lives there then of course they must be dangerous, but you could potentially have someone born in the US and raised somewhere else elected? (Legally, not likely obviously with the US's xenophobia)).

Wouldn't that be awesome though? It wouldn't even matter what his policies were.


Our last actor president was pretty damned good!
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SandChigger » 04 Nov 2010 21:25

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Personally I'd love to see Arny as President. You'd have to get rid of that totally stupid law about Presidents having to have been born in the USA though

Um, not. :hand:

This is actually one that I support completely. If you're not born American, you don't ever get to be POTUS. Don't bother applying or whining about it being unfair, just get over it and move on.


:shock: Wow. Sometimes I even surprise myself. :P

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Nov 2010 12:48

SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Personally I'd love to see Arny as President. You'd have to get rid of that totally stupid law about Presidents having to have been born in the USA though

Um, not. :hand:

This is actually one that I support completely. If you're not born American, you don't ever get to be POTUS. Don't bother applying or whining about it being unfair, just get over it and move on.


:shock: Wow. Sometimes I even surprise myself. :P


It's not the worst law ever or anything, it just doesn't make any sense. Two American citizens who've been there for generations could have a baby in Canada while visiting friends or something, then bring it back immediately, it could never set foot off the country again, and still wouldn't be allowed to be president. It's just silly is all, has no real grounds in reality.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SandChigger » 05 Nov 2010 18:33

A Thing of Eternity wrote:It's not the worst law ever or anything, it just doesn't make any sense. Two American citizens who've been there for generations could have a baby in Canada while visiting friends or something, then bring it back immediately, it could never set foot off the country again, and still wouldn't be allowed to be president. It's just silly is all, has no real grounds in reality.

Are you sure about those details? They may have changed the laws or I may be mistaken about the details myself, but I believe that the child of two American parents is automatically American no matter where it's born. And I'm pretty sure that one American parent gets a child dual nationality until age 18 or 20, at which point they have to choose. (I don't think there's still any silliness about the gender of the American parent; I'm pretty sure Japanese law used to grant automatic Japanese nationality only if the Japanese parent was male.)

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Omphalos » 05 Nov 2010 18:49

SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:It's not the worst law ever or anything, it just doesn't make any sense. Two American citizens who've been there for generations could have a baby in Canada while visiting friends or something, then bring it back immediately, it could never set foot off the country again, and still wouldn't be allowed to be president. It's just silly is all, has no real grounds in reality.

Are you sure about those details? They may have changed the laws or I may be mistaken about the details myself, but I believe that the child of two American parents is automatically American no matter where it's born. And I'm pretty sure that one American parent gets a child dual nationality until age 18 or 20, at which point they have to choose. (I don't think there's still any silliness about the gender of the American parent; I'm pretty sure Japanese law used to grant automatic Japanese nationality only if the Japanese parent was male.)


that's right Chig. Remember McCain was born in Panama to two American citizens, and he's a citizen by birth. The provision (and I believe it's Constitutional, not merely statutory) is to prevent a true foreigner, even if naturalized, from ever becoming president of the US. It's actually a good law Thing. No way the US will ever be run by a foreigner.

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Nov 2010 19:20

Yeah, children born overseas to citizens are citizens.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Nov 2010 00:45

Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:It's not the worst law ever or anything, it just doesn't make any sense. Two American citizens who've been there for generations could have a baby in Canada while visiting friends or something, then bring it back immediately, it could never set foot off the country again, and still wouldn't be allowed to be president. It's just silly is all, has no real grounds in reality.

Are you sure about those details? They may have changed the laws or I may be mistaken about the details myself, but I believe that the child of two American parents is automatically American no matter where it's born. And I'm pretty sure that one American parent gets a child dual nationality until age 18 or 20, at which point they have to choose. (I don't think there's still any silliness about the gender of the American parent; I'm pretty sure Japanese law used to grant automatic Japanese nationality only if the Japanese parent was male.)


that's right Chig. Remember McCain was born in Panama to two American citizens, and he's a citizen by birth. The provision (and I believe it's Constitutional, not merely statutory) is to prevent a true foreigner, even if naturalized, from ever becoming president of the US. It's actually a good law Thing. No way the US will ever be run by a foreigner.


I thought the deal with McCain was that he was ok because Panama essentially IS USA turf, but obviously I missunderstood that.


I maintain that the law is childish. It assumes that someone born somewhere else is less interested in the US doing well, or less capable of governing. Two people immegrate to the USA, depending on whether their kid is born right before or after they arrive/become citizens (whatever the rule is) they can or cannot run for Pres. My point is that being born somewhere else doesn't make a person a foreigner, no more than being born IN the US makes them a real American.

Sorry, this kind of stuff is just alien to me, I don't understand the motivation, who cares where someone is born. If someone doesn't have the countries interests at heart, or has a questionable/negative background, then they'll never even get nominated from Pres, let alone elected. Everything this law seems to be supposed to prevent would be prevented by something else anyways.

It just tells people who is or isn't a "real" american, regardless of their character or motives.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Omphalos » 06 Nov 2010 03:48

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:It's not the worst law ever or anything, it just doesn't make any sense. Two American citizens who've been there for generations could have a baby in Canada while visiting friends or something, then bring it back immediately, it could never set foot off the country again, and still wouldn't be allowed to be president. It's just silly is all, has no real grounds in reality.

Are you sure about those details? They may have changed the laws or I may be mistaken about the details myself, but I believe that the child of two American parents is automatically American no matter where it's born. And I'm pretty sure that one American parent gets a child dual nationality until age 18 or 20, at which point they have to choose. (I don't think there's still any silliness about the gender of the American parent; I'm pretty sure Japanese law used to grant automatic Japanese nationality only if the Japanese parent was male.)


that's right Chig. Remember McCain was born in Panama to two American citizens, and he's a citizen by birth. The provision (and I believe it's Constitutional, not merely statutory) is to prevent a true foreigner, even if naturalized, from ever becoming president of the US. It's actually a good law Thing. No way the US will ever be run by a foreigner.


I thought the deal with McCain was that he was ok because Panama essentially IS USA turf, but obviously I missunderstood that.


I maintain that the law is childish. It assumes that someone born somewhere else is less interested in the US doing well, or less capable of governing. Two people immegrate to the USA, depending on whether their kid is born right before or after they arrive/become citizens (whatever the rule is) they can or cannot run for Pres. My point is that being born somewhere else doesn't make a person a foreigner, no more than being born IN the US makes them a real American.

Sorry, this kind of stuff is just alien to me, I don't understand the motivation, who cares where someone is born. If someone doesn't have the countries interests at heart, or has a questionable/negative background, then they'll never even get nominated from Pres, let alone elected. Everything this law seems to be supposed to prevent would be prevented by something else anyways.

It just tells people who is or isn't a "real" american, regardless of their character or motives.


I think the Canal Zone was leased, which means it's no more US then Guantanamo, or HK was the UK's.

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Nov 2010 06:26

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps left by the Constitution. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

  • Anyone born inside the United States *
  • Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
  • Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
  • Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
  • Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
  • Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
  • Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
  • A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
* There is an exception in the law — the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.

Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.

Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402), Alaska (8 USC 1404), Hawaii (8 USC 1405), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406), and Guam (8 USC 1407). Each of these sections confer citizenship on persons living in these territories as of a certain date, and usually confer natural-born status on persons born in those territories after that date. For example, for Puerto Rico, all persons born in Puerto Rico between April 11, 1899, and January 12, 1941, are automatically conferred citizenship as of the date the law was signed by the President (June 27, 1952). Additionally, all persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, are natural-born citizens of the United States. Note that because of when the law was passed, for some, the natural-born status was retroactive.

The law contains one other section of historical note, concerning the Panama Canal Zone and the nation of Panama. In 8 USC 1403, the law states that anyone born in the Canal Zone or in Panama itself, on or after February 26, 1904, to a mother and/or father who is a United States citizen, was "declared" to be a United States citizen. Note that the terms "natural-born" or "citizen at birth" are missing from this section.

In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person." Not everyone agrees that this section includes McCain — but absent a court ruling either way, we must presume citizenship.

U.S. Nationals

A "national" is a person who is considered under the legal protection of a country, while not necessarily a citizen. National status is generally conferred on persons who lived in places acquired by the U.S. before the date of acquisition. A person can be a national-at-birth under a similar set of rules for a natural-born citizen. U.S. nationals must go through the same processes as an immigrant to become a full citizen. U.S. nationals who become citizens are not considered natural-born.

Becoming a citizen

A non-citizen may apply to become a citizen of the United States. At no time will such a person ever be considered natural-born (unless the U.S. Code is changed in some way). The process to become a citizen involves several steps, including applying to become and becoming a permanent resident (previously known as a resident alien), applying to become and becoming naturalized, and finally taking the Oath of Allegiance to the United States. Children of naturalized U.S. citizens generally become citizens automatically, though they will also not be considered natural-born. There is a time constraint before a permanent resident can apply for naturalization, generally either 3 or 5 years. The other requirements are that there be a minimum length of time in a specific state or district, successful completion of a citizenship exam, ability to read, write, and speak English, and good moral character.

The Oath of Allegiance to the United States

The following is the text of the Oath of Allegiance:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;
that I will support and defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;
that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;
that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law;
that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and
that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

Losing your citizenship

For a natural-born citizen, losing your citizenship is actually quite difficult. The law prohibits the taking of your citizenship against your will, but there are certain actions a citizen can take which are assumed to be a free-will decision that constitutes a voluntary renunciation of the citizenship.

Moving to another country for an extended period of time does not constitute an act that presumes renunciation. Neither does taking a routine-level job with a foreign government. This stand is quite different from U.S. policy of the past, where even being naturalized in another nation could be seen as renunciation. The sections of the law that pertained to losing ones nationality for many of these cases was found at 8 USC 1482 and related sections.

The U.S. Code does, however, see some acts as creating the possibility of a loss of nationality. When you lose your U.S. nationality, you are no longer under the protection or jurisdiction of the United States. When the United States considers you to no longer be of U.S. nationality, it in effect considers you to no longer be a citizen. Note that these are things you can do that may force you to lose your citizenship. The law also says that these acts must be voluntary and with the intent of losing U.S. citizenship. The ways to lose citizenship are detailed in 8 USC 1481:

[list=][*]Becoming naturalized in another country
[*]Swearing an oath of allegiance to another country
[*]Serving in the armed forces of a nation at war with the U.S., or if you are an officer in that force
[*]Working for the government of another nation if doing so requires that you become naturalized or that you swear an oath of allegiance
[*]Formally renouncing citizenship at a U.S. consular office
[*]Formally renouncing citizenship to the U.S. Attorney General
[*]By being convicted of committing treason[/list]

http://www.usconstitution.net/choose.html
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SandChigger » 06 Nov 2010 06:51

:P OK, Freak... it was a cool, sufficient answer the first time. Now you've edited, it's overkill and fantastic. :lol:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:If someone doesn't have the countries interests at heart, or has a questionable/negative background, then they'll never even get nominated from Pres, let alone elected.

I'm sorry...

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You were saying? ;)

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SadisticCynic » 06 Nov 2010 08:30

On the other hand though, that law didn't stop him getting elected.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Eyes High » 06 Nov 2010 09:47

Well when the law was first initiated I believe there was good cause. We were still a young nation at that time; however, now ... I'm not so sure how I feel about the law.

Being a citizen does mean that a person has the country's best interest at heart as Thing has stated. But I do think a person should have lived a vast majority of their life in the US in order to be considered for such a high elected office.

But will there ever be a change in the constitution concerning this matter? Only time will tell.
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SandChigger » 06 Nov 2010 13:03

Eyes High wrote:Being a citizen does mean that a person has the country's best interest at heart as Thing has stated.

You've never heard of traitors? ;)

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby lotek » 06 Nov 2010 16:21

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Eyes High » 07 Nov 2010 14:54

SandChigger wrote:
Eyes High wrote:Being a citizen does mean that a person has the country's best interest at heart as Thing has stated.

You've never heard of traitors? ;)



Dang! Am I going to have to start wearing my glasses?! :oops: :oops: :oops:

Being a citizen DOES NOT mean that a person....

:doh:


yeah, just look at all the nut jobs in this country (and other countries) the fanatics who think this place is only for the "pure" when they themselves are about as pure as a muddy glass of Lake Michigan water. (insert name of any poluted body of water)

There are plenty of "american born citizens" that I would NOT want to see in ANY political office much less as POTUS
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SandRider » 07 Nov 2010 21:15

article 2, section 1 -
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

- note the "citizen at the time of adoption" loophole ...

in 1789, the point was to keep some British guy from becoming president .... or a Canadian ...

any argument for ignoring any or all three of these requirements for eligibility to be president should begin with:
"You fuckers ain't followed the goddamn thing in 150 years ...."
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Nov 2010 22:17

I guess Eyes pretty much made my point. That law made sense once apon a time, but now seems to just be redundant (does anyone seriously think many Americans would vote for a foreigner?) and is blatantly overkill when applied to people who've lived their entire lives in the USA but were simply born elsewhere (we're talking immegrated when they were so young that they have literally NO memories of being anywhere but the USA).
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby SandChigger » 07 Nov 2010 23:31

I don't want Arny for my president, period.

If California will elect him governor, there'd no doubt be plenty who'd be happy to vote for him for President.

Feh.

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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Eyes High » 08 Nov 2010 14:14

He's done a pretty good job for CA so far hasn't he?

Well, I've got a perfect idea to settle all this......














Just elect me President :mrgreen:
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Nov 2010 14:16

SandChigger wrote:I don't want Arny for my president, period.

If California will elect him governor, there'd no doubt be plenty who'd be happy to vote for him for President.

Feh.


:lol: Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want him governing me either, but it'd be pretty funny to see him in charge of someone else's country! :twisted:
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Re: Bristol Palin - ambassador for abstinence

Postby Eyes High » 08 Nov 2010 14:34

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I don't want Arny for my president, period.

If California will elect him governor, there'd no doubt be plenty who'd be happy to vote for him for President.

Feh.


:lol: Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want him governing me either, but it'd be pretty funny to see him in charge of someone else's country! :twisted:



So that's your master plan huh? (And hey, did you and Omph ever get Canada and USA divided up? can't recall what thread that was in, but it was kinda funny)
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