Racism

[SwordMaster]

I believe the main problem is the generalization of the issue. Not all blacks are expecting something for nothing, but the ones who continue to play the race card receive the most attention. Not all whites judge others by their skin tone, but the ones who do stand out and are poor examples of how a human should act. Not all men are chauvinistic pigs but the ones who are… well you can see how it all boils down.

Is there an easy solution? No. Is there a solution? Yes, but it will not be a one size fits all. Teach our children to judge individuals not the group. Be responsible for their own actions and prejudices will eventually decline to a point that it won’t be the big issue it is now.

I’m glad we all are different. It is the differences that make life interesting. Will we like everyone equally? No, not with the different personalities out there, but so what. I know there are those who do not like me, even though I like to think of myself as an open minded person who can be a great friend. But such is life.

There is hatred in the southern US because of many reasons. The reconstruction period after the civil war, the injustices during the Jim Crow era, the hate groups who keep the turmoil stirred up. But it can get better if we work together as human beings, as fellow Americans, as fellow travelers in this wide universe of ours. Will it happen during my life time? Who knows.

Well, I normally don’t talk that much on this board. Thanks for putting up with this crazy, white, southern, Christian, fantasy reading, gal who is more than likely a half-breed anyhow.

This is actually one of the most insightful things I have read on the subject. Post more, your ideas and words are very much positive and constructive. You also have a good handle on complex issues. Love to read more of you.

[Eyes High]

Freakzilla wrote:

Where in the South do you live? I had no idea! FOr some reason I thought you lived up north.

North Carolina out in the country no less. About 30 miles east of Fort Bragg

[SwordMaster]

I try to do so, I try to read to them from the likes of Marcus Garvey and Fredrick Douglas, MLK, and Nelson Mandela. Is that the teaching you are recomending?

My kids are a little too young to read them anything like that. I don't pretend to know the best way to teach children. I just teach them what I think is right and I try not to pass on my prejudices to them.

I feel the same way. What I try to do is give them enough of a base of knowledge to make well informed choices. I try to offer various points of view and allow them the choice for what makes the most sense to them. My daughter is very mature for her age and asks the most complex of questions, so I attempt to give her the information needed to decide on what answer suits her understanding of reality. She then makes profound statments about her understanding, such as. "If a lot of people believe in different gods, it could be possible they are all the same god, and just present themselvs differently to different cultures."

Yah she is 9

[Eyes High]

This is actually one of the most insightful things I have read on the subject. Post more, your ideas and words are very much positive and constructive. You also have a good handle on complex issues. Love to read more of you.

Thank you very much.

[Freakzilla]

I still remember the first time my kids encountered black kids. I hadn't given them any preconceptions.

Judging by my kids reactions, the black kid could have been polka-dotted or plaid. It wouldn't matter if they wanted to play.

That made me happy.

[Freakzilla]

Freakzilla wrote:

Where in the South do you live? I had no idea! FOr some reason I thought you lived up north.

North Carolina out in the country no less. About 30 miles east of Fort Bragg

Well, howdy neighbor!

[A Thing of Eternity]

Okay, Eyes High’s post calmed me down a bit, so I’ deleted what I had written up, and changed it to this less retarded post:

I don’t know why we insist on arguing about this so much. Freak, you know why I think that some people do actually start of much lower than others, and that it is because of things that happened in the past, and that they need some extra help to get back up to equal opportunity. And some are going to abuse this, oh well, that’s what it costs to fix a problem (and there is still a problem). Is it fair to everyone else? No. So what? In my opinion: the injustice that is done to the rest of us when the ethnic groups who are on the bottom rung of our society get some extra benefits is by far less than the injustice that would be done leaving them in that cycle of poverty which they were forced into. I don’t believe in paying for the crimes of our ancestors, but I do believe in not continuing them.

And I know where you’re coming from on this. Every semester I watch my girlfriend stress out and worry about not being able to get into the classes she needs for her degree. Why might she not get in? Because of her grades? The class is full? Neither. There are a (large) number of seats set aside for first nations only, just in case any want to take that class. And if they do decide to take that class they don’t have to compete with the grades of the other students for admission, they only compete with other natives. So yes, I understand very clearly where you come from on this Freak and I don’t think any less of you for it, and I certainly don't think you're racist.

[GamePlayer]

Overcoming racism just takes time. A lot of time. I've always believed it's inevitable we'll overcome the problem, it's just that people are understandably frustrated with the long stages we have to go through to get there. I know I am, both with society and with myself.

It all takes place in stages. You have your stages like ending slavery. Then a stage of transition to that new reality. Then you have a stage where people are legally ensured equality. Then another period of transition. Then you have a stage of assimilation into society. Another transition period. A stage of cultural enforcement (political correctness). Transition follows. A stage of overcompensation. Transition period again. Rinse and repeat until finished.

The problem is people. People don't change and grow, as a general rule. Children grow into adulthood and adopt the prevailing social views of the times in which they live. From that point on (within the context of social change) most people are useless until death. They may preach, but don't practice. It takes the next generation to truly embrace the next stage of social change. Those children grow to adulthood and adopt a new set of prevailing social views. This goes on and on, slowly growing toward change with each step. Unfortunately each step seems to take 20-30 years, so we have history passing by for hundreds of years with the final goal still eluding us.

I believe this is part of the reason why they have called America (and by extension, all the modern democracies) as the "great experiments."

[Freakzilla]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

The plight of the urban black man in the US is not the fault of slavery.

If they are denied opportunities, it may be because they are black, but not because black people were slaves 150 years ago. If anything, they have more opportunities than me because they are black.

Want to be treated equally? Don't act like you want to be differnt.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

The plight of the urban black man in the US is not the fault of slavery.

If they are denied opportunities, it may be because they are black, but not because black people were slaves 150 years ago. If anything, they have more opportunities than me because they are black.

Want to be treated equally? Don't act like you want to be differnt.

You like to argue with things that I didn't say in the first place. I didn't say slavery is what caused it, I said they were plunged deeply into a cycle of poverty caused by discrimination in general. That's why I compared it to our natives, who were never slaves but are even further up shit creek for the same reasons. Slavery was a result of the discrimination, not the cause. They (as a group, there are certainly some who started off fine and are indeed now ahead of you) don't have more opportunities than you, or at least certainly not significantly more, impossible to measure exacts here, they start off (as a group) with less. That's not really debatable, as far as I see it.

I agree with you that the whole slavery issue should be let go by now, but it's pretty deeply associated with the discrimination (which is contemporary), and hard for people to separate out.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Overcoming racism just takes time. A lot of time. I've always believed it's inevitable we'll overcome the problem, it's just that people are understandably frustrated with the long stages we have to go through to get there. I know I am, both with society and with myself.

It all takes place in stages. You have your stages like ending slavery. Then a stage of transition to that new reality. Then you have a stage where people are legally ensured equality. Then another period of transition. Then you have a stage of assimilation into society. Another transition period. A stage of cultural enforcement (political correctness). Transition follows. A stage of overcompensation. Transition period again. Rinse and repeat until finished.

The problem is people. People don't change and grow, as a general rule. Children grow into adulthood and adopt the prevailing social views of the times in which they live. From that point on (within the context of social change) most people are useless until death. They may preach, but don't practice. It takes the next generation to truly embrace the next stage of social change. Those children grow to adulthood and adopt a new set of prevailing social views. This goes on and on, slowly growing toward change with each step. Unfortunately each step seems to take 20-30 years, so we have history passing by for hundreds of years with the final goal still eluding us.

I believe this is part of the reason why they have called America (and by extension, all the modern democracies) as the "great experiments."

Good post.

[Freakzilla]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

The plight of the urban black man in the US is not the fault of slavery.

If they are denied opportunities, it may be because they are black, but not because black people were slaves 150 years ago. If anything, they have more opportunities than me because they are black.

Want to be treated equally? Don't act like you want to be differnt.

You like to argue with things that I didn't say in the first place. I didn't say slavery is what caused it, I said they were plunged deeply into a cycle of poverty caused by discrimination in general. That's why I compared it to our natives, who were never slaves but are even further up shit creek for the same reasons. Slavery was a result of the discrimination, not the cause. They (as a group, there are certainly some who started off fine and are indeed now ahead of you) don't have more opportunities than you, or at least certainly not significantly more, impossible to measure exacts here, they start off (as a group) with less. That's not really debatable, as far as I see it.

I agree with you that the whole slavery issue should be let go by now, but it's pretty deeply associated with the discrimination (which is contemporary), and hard for people to separate out.

If any student in my state can maintain a B average they can go to college on the HOPE scholarship which is funded by the state lottery.

I got a C average in public school and I read SF books the whole time.

The black people in Atlanta have the same opportunity. I'll even bet it is easier to maintain a B in an inner city school that the one I went to.

Not to metion the preferential treatment they get in hiring due to race.

The laws to protect them (more than enough, IMO) are in place.

All they need to do is stop killing each other and open a book. In other words, act like they want to be treated.

[SwordMaster]

im not sure if anything is as that simple

FZ has a unique prespective though, he has seen and been forced to go through the other side of it, and that is the overkill that is programs like affermative action, and such.

Up here in Canada, we have nothing like that to experience.

[Omphalos]

I got into a big discussion with Freak about this a long time ago at DN and my opinion has not changed. That is to say, it really does not matter what the "truth" behind the causes of any claimed injustice are. If you want to resolve relations issues then what you have to do is listen to the other side and let them tell you what their problems are, then you tell them what your problems are. Whatever the other person's problem is, whether you believe them or not, you have to work to find resolution. In other words, you have to get over your disbelief or you wont help solve the problem. Period. You will only prolong it.

If the legacy of slavery is one of the problems that blacks in the U.S. identify as a part of the issue, then you telling them that they are wrong is not going to solve the problem at all. Personally I feel that you can explain that you have a hard time believing that, but if they maintain it and wont back down, then you have to deal with it head on. Part of conflict resolution is absolutely letting the other side tell you what the problem is and what the solution is. Then the next step is finding common ground, so you can stop focusing on those issues, then deal with the contentious ones. .

[Freakzilla]

I understand that.

In this as in all situations, pointing fingers and placing blame doesn't help much, especially when the blame lies in the distant past.

The first step, seems to me, would be to stop calling each other racists and niggers. Maybe then we can find common ground.

If we can't get past that it's pointless.

[SwordMaster]

I think every person should date a girl of another race, this would help us all be more understanding of the others 'experience'

I dated every race before settling with a Latina girl. Plus black, asain, latina, native girls can be really hot!

[Schu]

I don't know how it is in America as much as here, but based on what I've seen in Australia, I'd have to agree with some of the things aToE has been saying in general. There are somewhat outlandish benefits given to our natives but they will be a long time coming out of the hole that they're in, they've already been a few generations recovering and will need at least several more before they can hope to be anywhere near the average socio-economic status of white people here, they need every bit of help they can get. Probably the biggest problem they have is a sort of social depression: they are aborigines, they are poor, they have at least a couple of family members that are addicted to alcohol or petrol or something worse, their schools suck, their society is racked by abuse and there's little leadership.

So I wouldn't be surprised if in a hundred or so years, they still haven't recovered to get up to our stage and still need help with unfair-seeming government packages.

I guess another thing that is necessary is that if you think the government is giving unfair advantages to a certain race, to be annoyed at the government, not the people, but also realise that while they may be afforded some opportunities because they are of a certain race, that is only because their race (statistically) are denied several other opportunities because of the conditions into which they are born, and there is an attempt to fix that.

I would have to say that from what I can see of America though, a lot of "help" does seem to be genuinely counter-productive. I think if there's a (poverty, education, whatever) problem with certain people, irrespective of race, then fix the problem with that thing and ignore the race. I think America is in a better position to do this than we are in Australia, because the black population no longer has be nursed like the aboriginal population (in my opinion) still does. Try to help people too much beyond when it is needed, and they will always get a degree of institutionalisation, which is just going to make things worse, make them look lazy, get resentment from others etc.

[Eyes High]

Very well put Schu.

[SandRider]

I'll take issue with your "none of my ancestors were slave-holders" comment, Freak.

If your family is from the South, prior to The War, and not immigrants from after,
the chances of slave-holding is extremely high. Southern slavery did not just take
place in huge numbers on big Tara-like plantations. (There were actually very few
large plantations under one control as is currently believed or depicted in movies)

Most cotton production was done on small to medium family farms, brothers and
uncles and cousins working adjacent lands and often pooling their small slave force.
The true face of slavery in the South was not one big Master with hundreds of slaves,
but hundreds of ordinary citizens with one to three slaves each.

I take issue with your statement because I hear it all the time.
"I don't owe them nothin' - my people were too poor to own slaves".
Unless you can prove to me thru genealogical research that this is true, the numbers
are against that statement. People have forgotten or were not taught just how rich
and prosperous the South in general was before the War. We didn't turn into poor
white bare-footed trash until after the War.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I'll take issue with your "none of my ancestors were slave-holders" comment, Freak.

If your family is from the South, prior to The War, and not immigrants from after,
the chances of slave-holding is extremely high. Southern slavery did not just take
place in huge numbers on big Tara-like plantations. (There were actually very few
large plantations under one control as is currently believed or depicted in movies)

Most cotton production was done on small to medium family farms, brothers and
uncles and cousins working adjacent lands and often pooling their small slave force.
The true face of slavery in the South was not one big Master with hundreds of slaves,
but hundreds of ordinary citizens with one to three slaves each.

I take issue with your statement because I hear it all the time.
"I don't owe them nothin' - my people were too poor to own slaves".
Unless you can prove to me thru genealogical research that this is true, the numbers
are against that statement. People have forgotten or were not taught just how rich
and prosperous the South in general was before the War. We didn't turn into poor
white bare-footed trash until after the War.

I'd have to say that it's kind of a moot point IMO, unless FZ ever owned his own slave then I don't think he has to feel personally guilty about slavery, other than maybe a broad sense of racial (by race I mean human here) guilt/shame, such as feeling a bit guilt to belong to the same race that did that kind of garbage. (Just like one might feel somewhat guilty/shamed for all kinds of shitty things humans have done in the past).

[A Thing of Eternity]

Probably the biggest problem they have is a sort of social depression: they are aborigines, they are poor, they have at least a couple of family members that are addicted to alcohol or petrol or something worse, their schools suck, their society is racked by abuse and there's little leadership.

Sorry bout the dbl post.

I agree with all of your post Schu, especially this part. This sounds exactly like what has happened to the majority of our native population here, and I don't think I've ever encountered in person a tragedy quite like it.

[SwordMaster]

Why I feel we need to make up for mistakes of the past is simple. It is the Black plight in America. And that is that after slavery they faced some of the most challenging circumstances to try and get back on their feet, gain back their pride and somehow become part of society. Schools would not take them so education was nearly impossible to obtain. Without education or the hope of education, there is a corresponding poverty that goes along with uneducated. Thus inner city ghettos were all they could afford. It goes on and on.

Hate groups like the KKK still exist and I feel shame to share a race with these sorts of people. The fact is that when a high level of injustice takes place towards any race or religion, the balance must be restored. Obviously this tips the scale in programs like affirmative action. But the scale must lean in their direction for the fact it was so one sided for so long.

I think that its not just black vs white. Its all race relations. It’s the American Japanese that were rounded up into work camps. It’s the Latinos who are called wet back illegal’s.

It’s the way my wife is treated like she cannot afford the fancy jewelry in NYC(better call security) in till her white husband comes in and they say, oh you know this lady, yeah she is my wife, oh is there anything I can help you with….

It’s a deep issue that spans all of human history, and all human relations. Its very complex and for most people, uncomfortable to talk about. Its small things we do not even realize we do. It’s the segregation of our community.


In till the color of a mans skin is of no more signifacence that the color of his eyes, there will be war.
Bob Marley

[Freakzilla]

You must also realize that all these stereotypes that people have for races are not entirely without cause. That jeweler may have been robbed by a latino. We don't know. Still, it's no excuse but things like that contribute to the stereotype.

I think the minorities need to work as hard at not reinforcing and overcoming the stereotypes of the past as the majorities need to work at forgeting them.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I think the minorities need to work as hard at not reinforcing and overcoming the stereotypes of the past as the majorities need to work at forgeting them.

I don't think anyone dissagrees with that.

The whole gangsta rap genre is a great example of black people setting the cause further and further backwards IMO.

[SwordMaster]

I think the minorities need to work as hard at not reinforcing and overcoming the stereotypes of the past as the majorities need to work at forgeting them.

I don't think anyone dissagrees with that.

The whole gangsta rap genre is a great example of black people setting the cause further and further backwards IMO.

Well it is sometimes, not always. Thats like saying Britney Spears takes white people back to the trailer parks or slack jawed yokols. She does suck and she does make the stereo type of white people being ignorant. The thing is that the music you just refered to is often used in a way to promote violence and yes I agree with you. But the original "gangster" rap was more a story of rags to riches then anything else.

I am a white guy who enjoys some gangster rap to the point it educates me about the life that some blacks have to live, it allows me to feel empathy for them and also to enhance my understanding of their enviroment. I think in some cases this music can help, unfortunatly it does a lot of harm as well. Let me give you an example.

Bad gangster rap
"Shoot the cops"

Good gangster rap
"Let it be known, you cant keep a good man down,
hard times hardly wear me down,
the strong survive, what comes around goes around,
when the going get rough we ride, lord hold me down,
blood sweat and pain taken its tried,
nothin you do is breaking my pride,
my eyes on the prize been through the tribulations and trails
I realize Im still going rise"

See the difference?!