Herbert on Kennedy and Nixon

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Herbert on Kennedy and Nixon

Postby SwordMaster » 03 Mar 2009 21:17

HERBERT: There is definitely an implicit warning, in a lot of my work, against big government . . . and especially against charismatic leaders. After all, such people-well-intentioned or not-are human beings who will make human mistakes. And what happens when someone is able to make mistakes for 200 million people? The errors get pretty damned BIG!
For that reason, I think that John Kennedy was one of the most dangerous presidents this country ever had. People didn't question him. And whenever citizens are willing to give unreined power to a charismatic leader, such as Kennedy, they tend to end up creating a kind of demigod . . . or a leader who covers up mistakes—instead of admitting them—and makes matters worse instead of better. Now Richard Nixon, on the other hand, did us all a favor.

PLOWBOY: You feel that Kennedy was dangerous and Nixon was good for the country?

HERBERT: Yes, Nixon taught us one hell of a lesson, and I thank him for it. He made us distrust government leaders. We didn't mistrust Kennedy the way we did Nixon, although we probably had just as good reason to do so. But Nixon's downfall was due to the fact that he wasn't charismatic. He had to be sold just like Wheaties, and people were disappointed when they opened the box.

I think it's vital that men and women learn to mistrust all forms of powerful, centralized authority. Big government tends to create an enormous delay between the signals that come from the people and the response of the leaders. Put it this way: Suppose there were a delay time of five minutes between the moment you turned the steering wheel on your car and the time the front tires reacted. What would happen in such a case?
~~
- I had to post this, what would Frank think of Obama?
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Re: Herbert on Kennedy and Nixon

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Mar 2009 21:23

SwordMaster wrote:HERBERT: There is definitely an implicit warning, in a lot of my work, against big government . . . and especially against charismatic leaders. After all, such people-well-intentioned or not-are human beings who will make human mistakes. And what happens when someone is able to make mistakes for 200 million people? The errors get pretty damned BIG!
For that reason, I think that John Kennedy was one of the most dangerous presidents this country ever had. People didn't question him. And whenever citizens are willing to give unreined power to a charismatic leader, such as Kennedy, they tend to end up creating a kind of demigod . . . or a leader who covers up mistakes—instead of admitting them—and makes matters worse instead of better. Now Richard Nixon, on the other hand, did us all a favor.

PLOWBOY: You feel that Kennedy was dangerous and Nixon was good for the country?

HERBERT: Yes, Nixon taught us one hell of a lesson, and I thank him for it. He made us distrust government leaders. We didn't mistrust Kennedy the way we did Nixon, although we probably had just as good reason to do so. But Nixon's downfall was due to the fact that he wasn't charismatic. He had to be sold just like Wheaties, and people were disappointed when they opened the box.

I think it's vital that men and women learn to mistrust all forms of powerful, centralized authority. Big government tends to create an enormous delay between the signals that come from the people and the response of the leaders. Put it this way: Suppose there were a delay time of five minutes between the moment you turned the steering wheel on your car and the time the front tires reacted. What would happen in such a case?
~~
- I had to post this, what would Frank think of Obama?


With 300 M people that's 50% more mistakes!
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Postby Schu » 03 Mar 2009 23:56

Wonder how he would have felt about Clinton too.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Mar 2009 04:04

FH would have hated the reaction to Obama. How he would have felt about Obama himself is a totally different question. I think he might have agreed with him enough to vote for him (who am I to say though? Just guessing), but would probably have publicly chastised everyone for putting him on such a pedestal.

The basic message FH had there holds true right now, and always will.
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Postby Mr. Teg » 04 Mar 2009 07:07

_____
swordmaster wrote:____________
五輪書
Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death. 


Um, no.

I don't think that's what Musashi had in mind when he wrote that book.
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Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 10:37

I think the american messiah mob mentality that surrounds him would scare the crap out of him.
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Postby SwordMaster » 04 Mar 2009 12:03

Mr. Teg wrote:_____
swordmaster wrote:____________
五輪書
Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death. 


Um, no.

I don't think that's what Musashi had in mind when he wrote that book.


Im not sure I follow you, could you explain this more? I have read that book over 100 times and like to think I have a handle on it but do you have another translation for this quote that is more suitable? If you would like to debate the book of 5 rings I am always happy to do so. What he had in mind was a training manual of how to be a warrior. Not how to fight, or kill, or use a sword. The spirit of the warrior is indeed acceptance of death, one may also say that is important for all people also, whats your game Mr. Teg?
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Postby SwordMaster » 04 Mar 2009 12:04

Freakzilla wrote:I think the american messiah mob mentality that surrounds him would scare the crap out of him.


It would. Did you happen to vote McCain FZ?
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Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 12:35

Yes, I even voted twice for my republican senator!
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Postby Robspierre » 04 Mar 2009 13:43

Freakzilla wrote:Yes, I even voted twice for my republican senator!


Your learning, now if we could only get that to the twenty or so needed ...... :wink:

Rob

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Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2009 13:50

Robspierre wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Yes, I even voted twice for my republican senator!


Your learning, now if we could only get that to the twenty or so needed ...... :wink:

Rob


:lol: It was a run-off. One of the last two seats that kept the democrats from getting a "super-majority".
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Postby Mr. Teg » 05 Mar 2009 02:53

SwordMaster wrote:
Mr. Teg wrote:_____
swordmaster wrote:____________
五輪書
Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death. 


Um, no.

I don't think that's what Musashi had in mind when he wrote that book.


Im not sure I follow you, could you explain this more? I have read that book over 100 times and like to think I have a handle on it but do you have another translation for this quote that is more suitable? If you would like to debate the book of 5 rings I am always happy to do so. What he had in mind was a training manual of how to be a warrior. Not how to fight, or kill, or use a sword. The spirit of the warrior is indeed acceptance of death, one may also say that is important for all people also, whats your game Mr. Teg?


He never makes that kind a direct statement in the original Japanese.

"When people in general bring up this topic..."

If you read between the lines he's taking a jab at "warriors" who read books then walk around making such bold statements without the proper training and experience.

:D
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Postby SwordMaster » 05 Mar 2009 09:32

Mr. Teg wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Mr. Teg wrote:_____
swordmaster wrote:____________
五輪書
Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death. 


Um, no.

I don't think that's what Musashi had in mind when he wrote that book.


Im not sure I follow you, could you explain this more? I have read that book over 100 times and like to think I have a handle on it but do you have another translation for this quote that is more suitable? If you would like to debate the book of 5 rings I am always happy to do so. What he had in mind was a training manual of how to be a warrior. Not how to fight, or kill, or use a sword. The spirit of the warrior is indeed acceptance of death, one may also say that is important for all people also, whats your game Mr. Teg?


He never makes that kind a direct statement in the original Japanese.

"When people in general bring up this topic..."

If you read between the lines he's taking a jab at "warriors" who read books then walk around making such bold statements without the proper training and experience.

:D


I do not read Japanese so if you do clearly you might have a more accurate translation, however, in 3 of my english translation, the book of ground has this direct quote. It is also in a poem he wrote. Again all is translated. So maybe this is another lost in translation. This is the poem.
~
The Way
of the Warrior
O Master Musashi,
would you speak
of the Way:

"My son -
The Way of the Warrior
is resolute acceptance,
of Death."

The warrior
first dies,
then fights.
~
And in the book of ground this is like on the 3rd page. I cant provide the Japanese original however.

Thanks for the info Teg, Il continue to look into this and speak with my Kendo instructors about this during my next training session. Fortunatly one of them is Japanese.
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 10:49

A Thing of Eternity wrote:FH would have hated the reaction to Obama. How he would have felt about Obama himself is a totally different question. I think he might have agreed with him enough to vote for him (who am I to say though? Just guessing), but would probably have publicly chastised everyone for putting him on such a pedestal.

The basic message FH had there holds true right now, and always will.


I fully agree here. Frank would be pretty freaked out if he had the chance to see that crowd at the inauguration. Even I'll admit that the media and the people have a giant unnecessary crush on him, which could easily break their hearts if he fails.

But I'm willing to bet that if Frank Herbert voted in the previous election, it would have been a tough decision. He might have supported McCain because Frank likes small government, and is wary of charismatic leaders. However, McCain's environment policies don't exactly fit in with Frank's eco-philosophy, as far as I can tell. It seems to me that Frank was pretty concerned about the dangers of oil-dependence (Exxon Mobil = hydraulic despotism) as well as the impact that humans have on this planet. So it's hard to say how he'd vote, perhaps not at all.
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Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 11:30

I think the honeymoon is almost over. Some of the democrats are turning against him. Even GW had a higher approval rating at this point in his administration.
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Postby SwordMaster » 05 Mar 2009 11:37

Its a good question because of the conflicts you raise. His fear opf charismatic leaders would far more influence his vote then the enviroment, that being said, McCain being an economic dimwit, sorry FZ but the guy admited he did not know much about economics and then picked Sarah Palin as his VP. Sad really, with a stronger VP on economics he might have had a chance.

Even then the Sarah Palin pick made it clear that even they knew they could not win. So throw a really random wild card and hope it confuse people enough, it did for a few days, but as soon as Palin opened her mouth, the election was lost for Big Mac.

What do you read?

Anything and everything that is put in front of me!

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Postby SwordMaster » 05 Mar 2009 11:38

Freakzilla wrote:I think the honeymoon is almost over. Some of the democrats are turning against him. Even GW had a higher approval rating at this point in his administration.


you mean after 9/11 ?

GW never even won the election in the 1st place.
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Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 11:41

I still think we'd have been better off with McCain, at least he's not a National Socialist.

What's that abbreviation for national socialism???
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Postby SwordMaster » 05 Mar 2009 11:44

Freakzilla wrote:I still think we'd have been better off with McCain, at least he's not a National Socialist.

What's that abbreviation for national socialism???

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Why are you guys so afraid of socialism?

Cause Europe and Canada are doing so poorly economically?>

All the worlds best banks are nationalized. Your free market fell apart, its in ruins. Bridges and levies are crumbling, and most have no health care. Yet, fear the socialism it will be our down fall?!?! Your down fall is already in progress my friends.
Last edited by SwordMaster on 05 Mar 2009 11:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 11:47

Because I feel it violates our constitution.

I don't want to share the missery. Fuck the people who don't want to get off their asses and work. I don't want to pay for freeloaders.

How about this...

We become socialist but the american public gets oversight. If I'm going to pay for your healthcare I want to dictate what you eat, how much you exercise, and what you do for fun. You can have a welfare check but I get to tell you how to spend it.

Fuck that.

How about I keep my money and you keep yours?
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Postby SwordMaster » 05 Mar 2009 11:50

Freakzilla wrote:Because I feel it violates our constitution.

I don't want to share the missery. Fuck the people who don't want to get off their asses and work. I don't want to pay for freeloaders.

How about this...

We become socialist but the american public gets oversight. If I'm going to pay for your healthcare I want to dictate what you eat, how much you exercise, and what you do for fun. You can have a welfare check but I get to tell you how to spend it.

Fuck that.

How about I keep my money and you keep yours?


I can understand that. Its the lazy and unmotivated that will leach off the system that you fear. Well that makes more sense. Why the banks though? Nationalized banks is a very good idea to avoid what has just happend on Wall Street.
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Postby Freakzilla » 05 Mar 2009 11:54

SwordMaster wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Because I feel it violates our constitution.

I don't want to share the missery. Fuck the people who don't want to get off their asses and work. I don't want to pay for freeloaders.

How about this...

We become socialist but the american public gets oversight. If I'm going to pay for your healthcare I want to dictate what you eat, how much you exercise, and what you do for fun. You can have a welfare check but I get to tell you how to spend it.

Fuck that.

How about I keep my money and you keep yours?


I can understand that. Its the lazy and unmotivated that will leach off the system that you fear. Well that makes more sense. Why the banks though? Nationalized banks is a very good idea to avoid what has just happend on Wall Street.


Keeping Washington out of our bussiness would do it too.

I believe in the free market.
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 05 Mar 2009 12:23

My only problem with the free market, and equal-opportunity captilism, is that sometimes (definitely more-so recently) you get these giant monster corporations that do whatever they want and get away with it all in the name of free enterprise. They ruin the planet, enslave Chinese children, get bailouts for their mistakes, and as a result they become nearly invincible. In my opinion, when this happens, it's time for just a little socialism to balance it out.
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Postby Ampoliros » 05 Mar 2009 12:26

Freakzilla wrote:I think the american messiah mob mentality that surrounds him would scare the crap out of him.


How do you think FH would have reacted to TV and radio personalities like Rush and Hannity and especially Savage, Coulter and Beck?

They remind me of the PKD story Mold of Yancy
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Postby SwordMaster » 05 Mar 2009 12:30

I also support free market, but one that is well regulated.

The idea that free market can maintain itself is a crazy one.

Just as the idea of trickle down economics is another epic failure.

Those 2 things have been the driving force behind this meltdown.
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