Great Depression 2009

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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 12:05

Drunken Idaho wrote:And as for Palin, bleh, that's her choice.

Even if she does object to Obama's actions, she's only doing so because her Republican cohorts would agree. As if she really understands any of this. It seems to me that Republicans keep playing the role of obstructionists.


That's what the democrats do when the republicans are in power, checks and balances.

They're taking an awfully bitter position on it, without proposing any real solutions of their own.


There you are wrong, the republicans had several alternate plans, none were considered and the republicans were completely cut out from the bill writing process. The democratic response when they complained: "We won, get over it".

Then you get the others who are already talking about a second package, which is absurd. Isn't a lot of the stimulus money meant to be handed out over time? I say watch and wait for now, especially considering the fact that a trillion was just spent.


Much of it won't come down the pipe until 2011-12, if the republicans get back in power, which I think they will, they will simply repeal all the remaining spending.

I keep an eye on the little stock ticker on the home page of msn.ca (every time I sign out of hotmail). When the market is down from the previous day, the text is red, and when its up the text is green. Over the last week it seems to me that there has been more green than red. So we'll see...


It has been on the upswing for about the past 8 or 9 days.
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Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 12:09

Drunken Idaho wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:So, will India or China be our new overlords?


China, India, Iran, and first and foremost, Canada! :P


There is a FH book where Canada is the world Military leader, based on diplomacy, rather the UN is the last major Military force on earth and Canadians hold some of the highest ranks in that system. Who would have an issue with a Canadian Military leader? It was a cool book. Cant remember the name now, but the protagonist was a Canadian Admiral that was in charge of the UN Sea Fleet.



The White Plague?


Yes thank you for the reminder.

"The world's armed forces are reorganized under a Canadian Admiral, Francois Delacourt, who heads Barrier Command, responsible for the absolute separation of contaminated and clean areas. Scientists toy with a conspiracy of intellectuals to override the expected repression of research by governments. In countries around the world, angry mobs lynch Irish, English, and Libyans, and anyone too closely resembling them."
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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 12:15

SwordMaster wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:So, will India or China be our new overlords?


China, India, Iran, and first and foremost, Canada! :P


There is a FH book where Canada is the world Military leader, based on diplomacy, rather the UN is the last major Military force on earth and Canadians hold some of the highest ranks in that system. Who would have an issue with a Canadian Military leader? It was a cool book. Cant remember the name now, but the protagonist was a Canadian Admiral that was in charge of the UN Sea Fleet.



The White Plague?


Yes thank you for the reminder.

"The world's armed forces are reorganized under a Canadian Admiral, Francois Delacourt, who heads Barrier Command, responsible for the absolute separation of contaminated and clean areas. Scientists toy with a conspiracy of intellectuals to override the expected repression of research by governments. In countries around the world, angry mobs lynch Irish, English, and Libyans, and anyone too closely resembling them."


We'll take the English and the Lybians, but we don't want the Irish!

:lol:
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 20 Mar 2009 12:24

That book was alright... I find it interesting how Frank seems to praise computers in it, while seemingly condemning them in Dune.

What I really didn't like about it was how they got the inspiration for the computer solution from a hacker at the White House, who used a "search program" to access the communication network. And how Frank seemed to think that a search program could come up with a cure within minutes, and no one thought of this until the last minute. A few keystrokes, and not only do they solve the plague, but they also significantly extend the lives of those who get the treatment, and boom, God Empress of Ireland!

:roll:
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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 12:26

Drunken Idaho wrote:That book was alright... I find it interesting how Frank seems to praise computers in it, while seemingly condemning them in Dune.


I don't see it that way. FH condemed the misuse of computers or dependancy on them.

Computers themselve are not evil, this is a point the Hacks Twain have completely missed.
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Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 12:55

Drunken Idaho wrote:That book was alright... I find it interesting how Frank seems to praise computers in it, while seemingly condemning them in Dune.

What I really didn't like about it was how they got the inspiration for the computer solution from a hacker at the White House, who used a "search program" to access the communication network. And how Frank seemed to think that a search program could come up with a cure within minutes, and no one thought of this until the last minute. A few keystrokes, and not only do they solve the plague, but they also significantly extend the lives of those who get the treatment, and boom, God Empress of Ireland!

:roll:


Your right about the ending, I was hopiong for something much more then what it ended up to be... I just really loved the nod he gave to Canadian Diplomacy with Francois Delacourt as the main military leader.

I thought that was a classy thing for Frank to nod. I did not sense so much praise as much as the high dependce... But the ending was one of Frank's weakist for sure.
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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 12:59

I'd be interested to know what Frank would think of today's search engines.
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Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 14:20

Baraka Bryan wrote:I think i'll have to read that...

what's everyone think of Canadian Defence Minister Peter MacKay's name being bandied about as top NATO official?


I like the idea. I hope someone can get NATO on track.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Mar 2009 14:33

And off the track we go again!
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Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 14:45

TEA BAG THEM!
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 20 Mar 2009 16:02

It wasn't you, Baraka... We were talking about how the US will no longer be a superpower in the coming years, and somehow we ended up talking about the White Plague...
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Postby SandRider » 20 Mar 2009 16:26

people, right now, it's all about the nuclear weapons ...

we got 'em, and we'll use 'em.

all that economic bullshit is just that, bullshit.

let China buy everything over here. who cares ?

if you think the fascists that run the American government will
hesitate to start the next big war and destroy the planet just to
stay in power, you're wrong.
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Postby Tyrant » 20 Mar 2009 19:22

"And there aint a goddamn thing anybody can do about it
You know why, because weve got the bombs, thats why
2 words, nuclear fucking weapons, OK?
Russia, Germany, Romania, they can have all the democracy they want
They can have a big democracy cakewalk
Right through the middle of Tiananmen Square
and it wont make a lick of difference
Because weve got the bombs, OK?"

name that GREAT song
Your friendly neighborhood Tyrant!!!

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Postby Shadout » 20 Mar 2009 22:25

Drunken Idaho wrote:I'm no expert, but I'm also pretty confident in a rebound. I say within a year or two, we'll see a positive change in direction of the markets. The trade-off is that the world will come out a little bit shuffled. New rules will be in place about how money is lent and spent, and the US will probably no longer be the superpower they once were. I see a lot of news/talk programs speculating about the US's loss of that status, and a lot of people seem to fear such a notion, however I welcome it. It's not just because I'm Canadian, I also happen to think it will be a healthy change for both the world and the people of the US. I mean, America saw more than 60 years of prosperity. They, along with the rest of western civilization, allowed themselves to become fat and complacent, and now it's time to start living intelligently. This is all very good and cleansing, trust me. It's all about the long-run.

In some ways I agree, the current recession (don't think its anywhere bad enough to really compare it with the 30's, yet anyway) cold be good in the long run. The long lasting growth and prosperity gave people more faith in the market than it deserved, people started to spent more than they should, or even spent it in amazingly stupid ways... since it could only get better! It could only go up.
Getting a shock, to take us out of that 'over-confidence' in the market, could certainly be good for society as a whole (obviously not for those who end up unemployed). If the lesson last beyond the recession itself, which might be unlikely.

I doubt the current crisis will have any effect whatsoever on the power balance in the world however, as hard as the US is hit currently, other major powers are affected as much, and the US are probably better suited for a rebound than for example China is.

I dont get how people can believe the government (In US as well as elsewhere) shouldn't make spending bills, shouldn't save the financial sector etc. Its not just about the spending itself, which might or might not have a major effect on the economy, its just as much about sending the signal that sometjhing is done, that someone is trying to stop the negative trend. Fear and uncertainty is what drives the economy beyond what is reasonable in a recession, people believe everything is going to end, they stop spending etc. and thus hurting the economy more than the actual financial problems give reasons to. Spending bills is just as much about convincing people everything is fine (whether it is or not) as it is actually helping the economy directly.

Whether all the money is soent in the best way can certainly be discussed. And obviosuly they never will. Too many earmarks, too many conflicting interests got a chance to influence the bill, which is of course sad. But not getting the perfect deal (which never happens, especially not given the US history of earmarks and lobbying) rarely means no deal at all is the better choice.

Or maybe Obama really is a socialist in disguise, who is using the recession to make the evil nasty government grow too big for the republicans to stop it again.
Just like the Bush government used 9/11 to further its own ideas.
Who knows.

Phaedrus wrote:Basic Keynesian macroeconomics says that the best thing to do when you've got high unemployment, high inflation, and falling economic growth is to increase government spending and lower taxes. This is exactly what the government is doing...what's wrong with that again?

The problem is that Keynesian economics also says that when the economy is going strong, you should raise taxes and lower government spending. That's never been done before in this country.

Yes indeed. That has been a problem for a long time for US (imo).
Raising taxes got various benefits, one obviously is to get the money for spending later, as would be the case now.
The other is to calm down the economy on its highest, to reduce peoples spending, and for a national economy, although no one likes to state that anymore, with free trade and everything, to reduce their spending on goods from foreign countries.
Its just as dangerous not to control the good times as it is not to control the bad times (though conservatives/liberals (in US/EU context) would of course argue its better if there is no control in any of the cases).

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Postby Hunchback Jack » 21 Mar 2009 06:35

Tyrant wrote:"And there aint a goddamn thing anybody can do about it
You know why, because weve got the bombs, thats why
2 words, nuclear fucking weapons, OK?
Russia, Germany, Romania, they can have all the democracy they want
They can have a big democracy cakewalk
Right through the middle of Tiananmen Square
and it wont make a lick of difference
Because weve got the bombs, OK?"

name that GREAT song


Asshole by Denis Leary.

I was actually listening to this gem the other day. Came up during a shuffle on my iPod.

HBJ

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Postby Mr. Teg » 21 Mar 2009 08:37

Freakzilla wrote:
Drunken Idaho wrote:That book was alright... I find it interesting how Frank seems to praise computers in it, while seemingly condemning them in Dune.


I don't see it that way. FH condemed the misuse of computers or dependancy on them.

Computers themselve are not evil, this is a point the Hacks Twain have completely missed.


Frank did write a book on computers.
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Postby Freakzilla » 01 Apr 2009 16:09

For reference: 1 trillion dollars

A packet of one hundred $100 bills is less than 1/2" thick and contains $10,000. Fits in your pocket easily and is more than enough for week or two of shamefully decadent fun.

$1 million dollars is 100 packets of $10,000. You could stuff that into a grocery bag and walk around with it..

$100 million is a little more respectable. It fits neatly on a standard pallet...

$1 billion is 10 standard pallets of $100 bills.

$1 Trillion (1 followed by 12 zeros) is 1,000 pallets of $100 bills.

:shock:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 01 Apr 2009 16:18

Freakzilla wrote:For reference: 1 trillion dollars

A packet of one hundred $100 bills is less than 1/2" thick and contains $10,000. Fits in your pocket easily and is more than enough for week or two of shamefully decadent fun.

$1 million dollars is 100 packets of $10,000. You could stuff that into a grocery bag and walk around with it..

$100 million is a little more respectable. It fits neatly on a standard pallet...

$1 billion is 10 standard pallets of $100 bills.

$1 Trillion (1 followed by 12 zeros) is 1,000 pallets of $100 bills.

:shock:


As a kid, the first time I ever heard the word trillion used in reference to money was learning the US debt in grade 8 or 9 social studies class. :shock:
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 01 Apr 2009 16:19

Freakzilla wrote:For reference: 1 trillion dollars

A packet of one hundred $100 bills is less than 1/2" thick and contains $10,000. Fits in your pocket easily and is more than enough for week or two of shamefully decadent fun.

$1 million dollars is 100 packets of $10,000. You could stuff that into a grocery bag and walk around with it..

$100 million is a little more respectable. It fits neatly on a standard pallet...

$1 billion is 10 standard pallets of $100 bills.

$1 Trillion (1 followed by 12 zeros) is 1,000 pallets of $100 bills.

:shock:


Wow. Thanls for putting it in perspective like that. A trillion would be like 100 truckloads of 10 pallets each. I used to be warehouse manager at a swimming-pool supplies store, and I would be in over my head if I recieved 5 truckloads in a day. But 100???? Well I guess if we were recieving a trillion via trucks, i'd better be getting paid decently for it.
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Re: Great Depression 2009

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Apr 2009 12:15

Think of that when you see them talk on the news about Obama asking his cabinet to cut 100 million in spending.

Think of what percentage that 100 million is of the 787 BILLION spending... excuse me, STIMULUS package or of the 1.2 TRILLION dollar deficit built into this year's budget.

100 million is what, 10% of a billion? A thousand billions is a trillion.

Keep the change, Obama!
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Re: Great Depression 2009

Postby Phaedrus » 20 Apr 2009 12:26

But does that matter if we get all the money back by taxing the rich into oblivion?
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Re: Great Depression 2009

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Apr 2009 12:31

Phaedrus wrote:But does that matter if we get all the money back by taxing the rich into oblivion?


It will when there's no more rich people to tax.
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Re: Great Depression 2009

Postby Phaedrus » 20 Apr 2009 17:09

Freakzilla wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:But does that matter if we get all the money back by taxing the rich into oblivion?


It will when there's no more rich people to tax.


That's a better situation than letting all the rich people sit on their money while the world falls apart.
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Re: Great Depression 2009

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Apr 2009 17:22

Phaedrus wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:But does that matter if we get all the money back by taxing the rich into oblivion?


It will when there's no more rich people to tax.


That's a better situation than letting all the rich people sit on their money while the world falls apart.


Balance people, balance. :lol: People are too greedy/immoral for capitalism to ever work and too greedy/lazy for socialism to work.
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Re: Great Depression 2009

Postby Phaedrus » 20 Apr 2009 17:30

Actually, the flaw in both systems is the same: people rely on hierarchical systems of power. In capitalism, the measure of power is money, and in existing communist/socialist systems, the measure of power is simply power. Any system that involves concentrating power in the hands of a few people will result in the people without power being essentially screwed. I reject capitalism because there's no way to factor out serious imbalances in power. Socialism, at least in theory, involves the possibility of a rejection of power, so I find myself moving to the Left in search of a political philosophy that doesn't rely on a concentration of power. Of course, the real problem lies in the social desire for leadership and the pawning off of responsibility onto the hands of those who make decisions... and that's a problem that requires an enlightenment of the masses, which I'm fairly sure would require massive discontent and awareness to even be possible, and that's not happening anytime soon. We're set in a social situation that involves perpetuation of power and ignorance of consequences, and it has a metric fuckton of momentum.
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