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    Who We Are and What We Stand For

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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby merkin muffley » 29 May 2010 23:34

    Freakzilla wrote:Spanky McDune? :lol:


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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby TheDukester » 29 May 2010 23:53

    Maybe that was TheKJA's nickname after he visited the set?
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby SandRider » 30 May 2010 01:38

    well ... if it wasn't before .... it is now ....

    "Keith"'s gotten worn the hell out anyway, eh ?
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 May 2010 02:33

    It would be a good sock puppet UN at DN.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby lotek » 30 May 2010 09:18

    DuneFishUK wrote:Cool :)



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    Nice job, I think I see a reflection!
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby SandRider » 08 Sep 2010 16:07

    I posted this @amazon ... this seems to sum-up my issues ...

    this would be a reaction to the
    Haters Hate McDune because:
    ...a> Frank didn't write them
    ...b> Brian and Keith can't write in "Frank's style"
    ...c> Haters are fundamentalist Talifans who don't want new Dune books
    ...d> &etc. blah-blah

    standard Corporate Dune mumbo-jumbo ...



    as part of an "OH philosophy", what say you ?
    any of these points not agreed with, or need tweaking ?
    it's hard to "set the bar too high" concerning Brian and Keith ... examples of their previous and
    "original" work make it clear that neither are any kind of serious writers ... Keith recycles every
    sci-fi comix idea ever produced with the help of plot-generator scripts and creates every character
    from the same three prototypes ... Brian's work would be more suitably presented in a wordpress
    blagh with zero views, visits, and comments ...

    so to expect McDune to be of any quality based on the skills of these two is unreasonable;
    reviews, comments, and opinions of McDune criticizing the writing itself is no different than
    all the negative public reaction to any of Keith's other work ...

    the issue also isn't that McDune introduces ideas and concepts that are at odds with Frank's
    themes ... this is always the purpose of "Expanded Universe" franchise books or "re-boots" ...
    taking an established and familiar fictional world and tossing in new ideas with different authors,
    producing and new but *separate* work ...

    if that's what Keith and The Other Guy had done, there would have criticism of the horrible
    writing, juvenile plots, silly characters, cheap and meaningless philosophy dressed up in words
    beyond the working vocabulary of the creators, &etc. .... opinions that the work was a pale
    and embarrassing imitation of Frank's Dune and so on ... but recognizable as name-exploiting
    franchise cash-cow milking, held in contempt and dismissed as such ...

    but that ain't what's happened ...

    claiming that "Hunters/Sandworms of Dune" was written according to the "Final Dune7 Outline" of
    Frank Herbert, that the events described in the prequels were taken from "The Notes" of Frank
    Herbert uncovered 10 years after his death in a corner of Brian's garage; continuing, for over ten
    years now, to stick to this story despite thousands and thousands of on-line pages of rebuttals,
    with quotes from Frank's books and Frank's Own Words, completely dismissing these arguments
    and not allowing them to be openly discussed on Official Corporate Dune websites is beyond
    despicable, and an insult not only to Frank's fans, but to the literary world as a whole ...

    not archiving these alleged "Notes" and "Dune7 Outline" in the Fullerton Archive with Frank's other
    notes is an offense to academia ... the paranoid and overzealous behavior of HLP lawyers in the
    excessive and wrong-headed "protection" of the Dune "Trademark" is an offense to art itself ...

    so there are a number of different issues here than just the fact that
    "some guys have written new Dune books and we don't like it ...."
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Sep 2010 16:28

    It's very well stated, IMO.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby D Pope » 08 Sep 2010 17:52

    so there are a number of different issues here than just the fact that
    "some guys have written new Dune books and we don't like it ...."

    I'm ok with just about anything supporting this quote. I doubt that a single statement will cover the passions of the entire OH community but I think it's fair to say that we wouldn't exist if it weren't for offencively stupid product, heinously misrepresented, for only the most base reasons.

    I take it personally.
    It's not difficult to imagine paralell scenarios. Remember the proposal to add Reagans face to Mt. Rushmore, then imagine if they had done it and said that it was ok because doing so had generated new interest in an old attraction and if you don't like it you don't have to look. Why would such a thing upset you? It's not yours, and besides, it's just a rock that was cut by the son of the original sculptor and he did his best by hiring a technical copyboy who always wanted to be a sculptor...
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby SandChigger » 09 Sep 2010 15:37

    D Pope wrote:It's not difficult to imagine paralell scenarios. Remember the proposal to add Reagans face to Mt. Rushmore, then imagine if they had done it and said that it was ok because doing so had generated new interest in an old attraction and if you don't like it you don't have to look. Why would such a thing upset you? It's not yours, and besides, it's just a rock that was cut by the son of the original sculptor and he did his best by hiring a technical copyboy who always wanted to be a sculptor...

    :clap: :clap: :clap:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby valys » 10 Sep 2010 03:52

    Now that's the best comparison to describe bh&kja's situation i've seen 'till now. Thumbs up, DPope!
    Like I said before, I never repeat myself.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Sep 2010 08:53

    Cheers for 'Rider's summarization as well. :clap: :clap: :clap:
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 10 Sep 2010 10:33

    SandChigger wrote:
    D Pope wrote:It's not difficult to imagine paralell scenarios. Remember the proposal to add Reagans face to Mt. Rushmore, then imagine if they had done it and said that it was ok because doing so had generated new interest in an old attraction and if you don't like it you don't have to look. Why would such a thing upset you? It's not yours, and besides, it's just a rock that was cut by the son of the original sculptor and he did his best by hiring a technical copyboy who always wanted to be a sculptor...

    :clap: :clap: :clap:

    very nice! :clap:
    so to expect McDune to be of any quality based on the skills of these two is unreasonable;

    This is the only part I'd disagree with... "I personally think that it IS reasonable to expect someone to step up their game when writing in the Dune universe, and am incensed that they did not do so. Just because they have a history of writing less-than-stellar books does not, in my opinion, preclude them from being able to learn and grow as writers - they simply have chosen, for their own inscrutable reasons, not to do so. If money/fame/greed were motivating factors, as seems likely, then they would have made more of it if the writing was improved and errors were avoided, imho." (this is me quoting myself from my amazon response to sandrider's response)

    I'm of the opinion (not shared by many at all) that Brian could have kept writing and improving, since I thought his early solo and colab stuff showed some promise. KJA doesn't get any sympathy from me, however, for the crap he does.

    And to be clear - Brian, at this time, is contemptible for allowing the desecration of his father's work, and for having a hand in (and his name linked to) this whole crapfest.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby merkin muffley » 10 Sep 2010 16:26

    I, personally, have not seen any evidence that Brian Herbert is capable of writing anything that isn't painful to read. I have not read the Complete Works of Brian, though. It's mostly adjectives.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby D Pope » 10 Sep 2010 16:40

    I've got an interest in his nonfic book about the Merchant Marines getting the shaft after the war. I'd probably have bought it by now if someone else had written it.
    Does that seem harsh? All jokes aside, how bad could he do?
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby D Pope » 11 Sep 2010 01:55

    grandmastercrafter wrote:
    SandRider wrote:so to expect McDune to be of any quality based on the skills of these two is unreasonable;

    This is the only part I'd disagree with... "I personally think that it IS reasonable to expect someone to step up their game when writing in the Dune universe, and am incensed that they did not do so.

    I think the Rider means that their game is as stepped up as it gets, no amount of effort on KJHs part will result in the quality that Dune deserves. You can't expect them to do better than their best any more than expecting me to paint a great work of art. ( i'm colorblind )
    There's a thread here brilliantly describing multiple methods of franchising Dune for posterity as well as profit. I just can't find it.
    edit; viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2274&p=83982&hilit=franchise#p83982
    A Little Galach wrote:The writing of the prequels and sequels offends me because if KJA had any creative DNA and if BH had any balls they could have written sequels that depicted the rogue group's travels and subsequent colonization of a new planet(s?) in some distant galaxy. They were basically handed a blank canvas on which to "paint" dozens of books and detach them from FH's in terms of storyline and need for much consistency, and they decided to try and piss on the first 6 instead, and saturate them as thoroughly as possible at that. Hell, HLP could have allowed one damn book to be written by a real writer to wrap up the Old Empire and lay the groundwork for the Rogues and then opened the flood gates to franchise "Sheeana's Scattering" novels that would have probably given them a more consistent and morally acceptable revenue stream.


    Honestly, I look at it as an large scale equivalent to Star Trek: Voyager, where a successful brand with household-knowledge technology was given a fresh start and the ability to write outside of the constraints of the universe the previous writers had created. A writer with creative ability, imagination and TALENT could have written something really good by combining a legacy with their own vision. Both products ended up sucking, it's a shame Dune's sucked because of ego and greed.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby TheDukester » 11 Sep 2010 03:01

    merkin muffley wrote:I, personally, have not seen any evidence that Brian Herbert is capable of writing anything that isn't painful to read.

    I haven't seen it either, yo.

    He's living proof that writing ability isn't necessarily genetic. Which is why the preeks' favorite argument — "But he's Frank's son!" — is so amazingly asinine.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 12 Sep 2010 03:09

    D Pope wrote:
    grandmastercrafter wrote:
    SandRider wrote:so to expect McDune to be of any quality based on the skills of these two is unreasonable;

    This is the only part I'd disagree with... "I personally think that it IS reasonable to expect someone to step up their game when writing in the Dune universe, and am incensed that they did not do so.

    I think the Rider means that their game is as stepped up as it gets, no amount of effort on KJHs part will result in the quality that Dune deserves.

    Yes, that's what I read out of his comment too... but I guess I'm kind of an optimist on this topic - I believe that individuals who have developed even minor skills in some profession can improve, if they are motivated (either internally or externally)... They make money doing it the KJA way, so there is no need to 'improve' anything, from their point of view. KJA and Brian have chosen not to improve - but I don't believe that they are unable to write better than they have already.

    imho - They made their story choices by catering to the elements of Dune that, in their opinion, seemed most appealing to fans (and seemed more likely to attract new clientele - the younger generation with more capital to spread around, hence the action and gratuitous sex and violence, and keep the deep thoughts on the down low). And they added stuff that would attract more individuals from other genres, like fantasy and shit. And in doing these things, they made a ton of mistakes. However, what we see as desecration, they see as $$. I think they miscalculated, and they're starting to see that now, with all the flak about the quality going around, but I think that's why the quality is so low in the first place. They didn't focus on quality, but rather on the 'hooks', to catch more sales from susceptible fans, using the Dune name prominently on each cover to deceive buyers that 'quality exists in these pages' - a blatant lie to get mo money...

    But I'm of the opinion that given some strict instruction, for anywhere from 2-6 years, in writing from Dan Simmons, Vernor Vinge, Orson Scott Card, etc etc (even David Weber would do!) they would be able to improve their writing skills, even if only 25% or less (any improvement will do, at this point), just like any other human being... they just choose not to improve. I mean - it's been a decade! The contemptible fact that they haven't improved is a choice - and that makes me madder than if it was some factor outside their control, like that they're just genuinely mentally challenged.

    Although I don't discount that possibility entirely - it just seems unlikely that they can't get better, you know? (Then they'd deserve our pity, and CATscans, meds and treatments or whatever, but you can't hate someone who was born dumb, can you?)
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby D Pope » 13 Sep 2010 01:58

    grandmastercrafter wrote:- it just seems unlikely that they can't get better, you know?

    Paul of Dune
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby SandRider » 13 Sep 2010 02:50

    Jessica to the Winds of Dune
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby chanilover » 13 Sep 2010 06:05

    McDune is unnecessary drivel. Like gluing a couple of twigs for arms onto the Venus de Milo and thinking it's better now, as people wanted to see what the arms would have looked like.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby lotek » 13 Sep 2010 07:42

    anyone with a blatant lack of imagination
    (and that's quite a few people)

    the KBH caters to those...
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby TheDukester » 14 Sep 2010 00:06

    grandmastercrafter wrote:... it just seems unlikely that they can't get better, you know?

    If there is a place called "Agreement," then I am as far away from that place as is possible, while still remaining in the same space/time continuum.

    In fact, I'll go so far as to say they've proven they can't.

    McDune an assembly line of words that surround characters, places, and events created by Frank Herbert; nobody involved gives two shits beyond that point. It's all about cash, ego, and recognition (and, in Bobo's case, a really scary hatred of his father). Down the road a bit, it will also be about everyone cashing in with a fat paycheck from the movie.

    "Getting better" is an absurd notion to these pustules; they'd likely give you a blank look if you brought it up. They simply don't care.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby merkin muffley » 14 Sep 2010 02:24

    TheDukester wrote:"Getting better" is an absurd notion to these pustules; they'd likely give you a blank look if you brought it up. They simply don't care.


    Many of the worst things those guys are doing to Dune - doing a bad imitation of Star Wars and Star Trek, doing Tween fiction - are things they are doing on purpose. They wouldn't be interested in creating something better.

    And I also don't think they're capable of doing much better, talent-wise.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby D Pope » 14 Sep 2010 03:54

    Lack of interest and lack of talent are good reasons for their lack of improvement.
    I think their lack of understanding is a provable fact of the poor job they've done in adding to Dune.

    Talk about sucking the abundance of the sand...
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Who We Are and What We Stand For

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 16 Sep 2010 09:10

    TheDukester wrote:
    grandmastercrafter wrote:... it just seems unlikely that they can't get better, you know?

    If there is a place called "Agreement," then I am as far away from that place as is possible, while still remaining in the same space/time continuum.

    In fact, I'll go so far as to say they've proven they can't.

    McDune an assembly line of words that surround characters, places, and events created by Frank Herbert; nobody involved gives two shits beyond that point. It's all about cash, ego, and recognition (and, in Bobo's case, a really scary hatred of his father). Down the road a bit, it will also be about everyone cashing in with a fat paycheck from the movie.

    "Getting better" is an absurd notion to these pustules; they'd likely give you a blank look if you brought it up. They simply don't care.

    You're preaching to the choir... it would be more accurate to say that they've proven to date that they haven't gotten better - but that's not my point. I'm trying to say that they earn my contempt for the last thing you said: ""Getting better" is an absurd notion to these pustules; they'd likely give you a blank look if you brought it up. They simply don't care." ...not caring is the crime.

    As human beings of average intellectual capacities, they are capable of learning (and thereby getting better, if they cared to). That's a physiological characteristic of being an creature with a developed nervous system that allows for rational thought, and rational actions, along with the instinctual animalistic tendencies...

    They are contemptible for choosing not to... I don't believe that they're actually retarded, or challenged mentally. It's not physical. It's a choice. That's what I think is so bad. That choice of theirs.

    And if it is a choice, then the bottom line is that (as an optimist) I can envision a future where either one or the other recognizes the error of their ways and backpedals/retracts/apologizes/attempts restitution... it's just a vague, probably overly optimistic, hope, but they are the ones with the control over these 'official' stories - and all joking aside, they have more than a pair of neurons between them (not to mention the rest of the family and other entities with an interest in this franchise)... we can all learn from our mistakes, or be made to learn (external pressures - many - and internal conflicts - seemingly none...), and until they do I'll continue to hold them in the lowest esteem.

    But a man can hope. I'll probably do my little bit to try to change the state of affairs with the Dune franchise til I die, but if there's even a slim chance that they can be made to repent their ways, and maybe even beg forgiveness for their behavior, at some indeterminate date in the future, I'm on it. imho

    Pile on :lol:
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