Dosadi


Moderators: Mr. Teg, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos

User avatar
Mr. Teg
Moderator
Posts: 708
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
Location: Chair
Contact:

Dosadi

Post by Mr. Teg »

Revolt against the ruling computer?

An example of Frank's version of the Butlerian Jihad?
Last edited by Mr. Teg on 17 Mar 2008 09:38, edited 1 time in total.
CHOAM
Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
Brian, Kevin & Byron :? :cylon101: :roll: The HLP
User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital

Post by orald »

If you're refering to the DemoPol, then maybe related in a very twisty way...though frankly, this isn't much about rulling machines as much as rulling persons, warlords on Dosadi and shadow-figures behind the governments in the ConSentiency in this case.

From what I understood, the DemoPol is used to know what a population wants and thus control it better in the guise of giving it what it needs.
It's merely a tool.

I just finished reading it 2 days ago, and while I haven't understood everything, the main themes seem to be the power people are attracted to, the desire to conservatism(immortallity, institutions and law systems) and how they work against adaptation of spiecies in a changing universe, and(again, as in Dune and Pandora) how stressful and harsh invironments and situations that test your limit elevate you and make you "stronger".
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
User avatar
Mr. Teg
Moderator
Posts: 708
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
Location: Chair
Contact:

Post by Mr. Teg »

I thought I remember McKie expressing surprise about the existence of the DemoPol and emphasizing that it was very dangerous not just merely a tool.

The computer is still running the show on some level wasn't it, but I don't mean anything close to ominius.

I'll have to hunt down the passages.
CHOAM
Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
Brian, Kevin & Byron :? :cylon101: :roll: The HLP
User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Post by SandChigger »

I don't remember there being an AI presence in that. ???
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital

Post by orald »

Me neither. Like I said, I just fiished reading it for the first time 2 days ago, and the DemoPol was only mentioned as a tool for assessing the population's direction of thought and such, as a tool for controlling them.
They use a simulation system to predict how different people will act(there's a scene where they use it to preject Broey's actions), and it's mentioned it's a deriviative of the DemoPol technology, if I'm not mistaken, or uses something similar to it.

the 2 major themes I've seen in this book are that of conservatism(the "immortal" body changers) vs adaptation and change(BuSab, Gowachin Law and Dosadi population), and how the harsh environment produces "super" beings, like Arrakis and Salusa Secundus.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
User avatar
Mr. Teg
Moderator
Posts: 708
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
Location: Chair
Contact:

Post by Mr. Teg »

SandChigger wrote:I don't remember there being an AI presence in that. ???
I don't remember an AI either, except maybe the daily planner he talked to at the beginning, but certainly nothing like what was envisioned by P&B.
CHOAM
Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
Brian, Kevin & Byron :? :cylon101: :roll: The HLP
User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital

Post by orald »

Ah, it was a relatively minor issue if you ask me, more like a side jab at how machines(again, as in Dune) are incapable of predicting and understanding what's good for humans.
I think you can also see that in the fact that all those computer generated profiles were nice and all, but still Jedric and McKie were able to have better predictions about the acts of some people than even the computers.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

I liked this book, I think it continues with alot of FH's philosophy that people can become amazing things when exposed to extreme suffering. The plight of all Dosadi's people is comparable to the tough life of Fremen, Teg's torture, and also the "scream room" from The Jesus Incident.
Any other examples of FH talking about "tempering" humans into weapons that I'm missing?
Image
User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital

Post by orald »

-The sardaukar, obviously.
-The BG go through a life of tight discipline and then the Agony.
-God Leto under the pressure of the spice trance and agony, together with Paul.
-Gholas need emotional or physical suffering to regain their memories.
-D:V has the crew facing, not exactly suffering, but tight conditions.
-Perhaps Under Pressure also has that, but very limitedly, they don't really evolve in that book.
-The White Plague has the hero going mad under the suffering and becoming more brilliant than ever.
-The Heaven Makers. You caould call Ruth's emotional suffering for her family, her ex boyfriend and the force-field thingy the Chem use to control her such, and that makes her evolve from her rather flat character in the begining of the book(and she gains some ressistence to the field, albeit only partial).
-I think The God Makers has some sort of trials to the hero before he because enlightened enough to become a "god". Don't remember much though.

That's all I could think of from the books I've read.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

I haven't read God Makers or The White Plague yet, how are they?
Image
User avatar
orald
Posts: 3010
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 14:48
Location: Maximum Security Mental Hospital

Post by orald »

God Makers is a bit, uh, unsatisfying. :|

I think TWP is brilliant, if only a bit too long. But it may have to do with the fact I've thought of doing the same as the hero myself many times even before reading it.
Though I'll probably kill all men, not all women. :twisted:

I have a PDF version of that if you want(methinks of God Makers too), but I guess you're just buying a hard copy of it anyway to add to your collection.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
User avatar
Simon
Posts: 566
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Post by Simon »

I just started reading this one, so far so good (though I'm only four chapters in).
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

You'll love it.
Image
User avatar
martinburo
Posts: 14
Joined: 17 May 2008 15:36

Post by martinburo »

I have a PDF version of that if you want(methinks of God Makers too)
Orald, I'd really like having those. I have hard copies, but it's so useful to be able to search for specific text, which I use a lot with my pdf copies of the Dunes. My email is erik1967 at email dot com.
User avatar
Hunchback Jack
Posts: 1983
Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
Location: California, USA

Post by Hunchback Jack »

Finished reading Dosadi recently. Liked it a lot, but it was very different from Whipping Star. I think I might need to reread the courtroom scene at the end too.

The Dosadi seem a bit BG-ish in the way they can read people so well. Some classic Herbert themes of morality, and challenging the traditional idea of heroes and bad guys.

One thing reading these has confirmed to me about FH - when he put pen to paper, he didn't mess around with small ideas.

HBJ
User avatar
SimonH
Posts: 179
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 18:28

Post by SimonH »

Dosadi is easily my favourite non Dune FH book (that I have read anyway)

I wonder if FH was having to deal with lawyers in large quantities when he wrote Whipping Star and Dosadi. :D

My take is that a central theme is the use of language as a weapon or a tool (not just verbal language)
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Hunchback Jack wrote:Finished reading Dosadi recently. Liked it a lot, but it was very different from Whipping Star. I think I might need to reread the courtroom scene at the end too.
HBJ
You and me both. I could use a massive dose of insight into a lot of the Gowachin law.
Image
User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18449
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Post by Freakzilla »

Didn't the winner get eaten or something like that? It's been a LONG time since I read that one.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

If the defendant is found innocent they are torn limb from limb is what I remember, but if they're found guilty they get some lesser sentence. I never have figured out why, and what FH was trying to tell us with that. :oops:
Image
User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18449
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Post by Freakzilla »

Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author :shock: , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author :shock: , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".
All six at once would kill anyone's brain. Go get some well needed rest from FH overdose. :D
Image
User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18449
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Post by Freakzilla »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author :shock: , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".
All six at once would kill anyone's brain. Go get some well needed rest from FH overdose. :D
I would not recomment it to anyone who doesn't have them practically memorized beforehand. I just read the first two Hitchiker's Guide books, that was a nice change of pace.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
User avatar
SimonH
Posts: 179
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 18:28

Post by SimonH »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:If the defendant is found innocent they are torn limb from limb is what I remember, but if they're found guilty they get some lesser sentence. I never have figured out why, and what FH was trying to tell us with that. :oops:
I think I know...

I think it has something to do with the concept of the father Gowachin culling his taddies to make sure his children are strong.
User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Post by SandChigger »

Frank didn't cull hard enough.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
User avatar
SimonH
Posts: 179
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 18:28

Post by SimonH »

:lol: maybe it was an expression of an repressed desire
Post Reply