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    Dosadi

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      Non-Dune Frank Herbert Book Discussion

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Mr. Teg

    Dosadi

    Postby Mr. Teg » 17 Mar 2008 07:33

    Revolt against the ruling computer?

    An example of Frank's version of the Butlerian Jihad?
    Last edited by Mr. Teg on 17 Mar 2008 09:38, edited 1 time in total.
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    Postby orald » 17 Mar 2008 08:34

    If you're refering to the DemoPol, then maybe related in a very twisty way...though frankly, this isn't much about rulling machines as much as rulling persons, warlords on Dosadi and shadow-figures behind the governments in the ConSentiency in this case.

    From what I understood, the DemoPol is used to know what a population wants and thus control it better in the guise of giving it what it needs.
    It's merely a tool.

    I just finished reading it 2 days ago, and while I haven't understood everything, the main themes seem to be the power people are attracted to, the desire to conservatism(immortallity, institutions and law systems) and how they work against adaptation of spiecies in a changing universe, and(again, as in Dune and Pandora) how stressful and harsh invironments and situations that test your limit elevate you and make you "stronger".
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Mr. Teg » 17 Mar 2008 09:50

    I thought I remember McKie expressing surprise about the existence of the DemoPol and emphasizing that it was very dangerous not just merely a tool.

    The computer is still running the show on some level wasn't it, but I don't mean anything close to ominius.

    I'll have to hunt down the passages.
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    Postby SandChigger » 17 Mar 2008 10:08

    I don't remember there being an AI presence in that. ???
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby orald » 17 Mar 2008 10:47

    Me neither. Like I said, I just fiished reading it for the first time 2 days ago, and the DemoPol was only mentioned as a tool for assessing the population's direction of thought and such, as a tool for controlling them.
    They use a simulation system to predict how different people will act(there's a scene where they use it to preject Broey's actions), and it's mentioned it's a deriviative of the DemoPol technology, if I'm not mistaken, or uses something similar to it.

    the 2 major themes I've seen in this book are that of conservatism(the "immortal" body changers) vs adaptation and change(BuSab, Gowachin Law and Dosadi population), and how the harsh environment produces "super" beings, like Arrakis and Salusa Secundus.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Mr. Teg » 17 Mar 2008 15:43

    SandChigger wrote:I don't remember there being an AI presence in that. ???


    I don't remember an AI either, except maybe the daily planner he talked to at the beginning, but certainly nothing like what was envisioned by P&B.
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    Postby orald » 17 Mar 2008 17:40

    Ah, it was a relatively minor issue if you ask me, more like a side jab at how machines(again, as in Dune) are incapable of predicting and understanding what's good for humans.
    I think you can also see that in the fact that all those computer generated profiles were nice and all, but still Jedric and McKie were able to have better predictions about the acts of some people than even the computers.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Apr 2008 19:00

    I liked this book, I think it continues with alot of FH's philosophy that people can become amazing things when exposed to extreme suffering. The plight of all Dosadi's people is comparable to the tough life of Fremen, Teg's torture, and also the "scream room" from The Jesus Incident.
    Any other examples of FH talking about "tempering" humans into weapons that I'm missing?
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    Postby orald » 10 Apr 2008 19:24

    -The sardaukar, obviously.
    -The BG go through a life of tight discipline and then the Agony.
    -God Leto under the pressure of the spice trance and agony, together with Paul.
    -Gholas need emotional or physical suffering to regain their memories.
    -D:V has the crew facing, not exactly suffering, but tight conditions.
    -Perhaps Under Pressure also has that, but very limitedly, they don't really evolve in that book.
    -The White Plague has the hero going mad under the suffering and becoming more brilliant than ever.
    -The Heaven Makers. You caould call Ruth's emotional suffering for her family, her ex boyfriend and the force-field thingy the Chem use to control her such, and that makes her evolve from her rather flat character in the begining of the book(and she gains some ressistence to the field, albeit only partial).
    -I think The God Makers has some sort of trials to the hero before he because enlightened enough to become a "god". Don't remember much though.

    That's all I could think of from the books I've read.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Apr 2008 19:34

    I haven't read God Makers or The White Plague yet, how are they?
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    Postby orald » 10 Apr 2008 19:52

    God Makers is a bit, uh, unsatisfying. :|

    I think TWP is brilliant, if only a bit too long. But it may have to do with the fact I've thought of doing the same as the hero myself many times even before reading it.
    Though I'll probably kill all men, not all women. :twisted:

    I have a PDF version of that if you want(methinks of God Makers too), but I guess you're just buying a hard copy of it anyway to add to your collection.
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    Postby Simon » 26 May 2008 05:07

    I just started reading this one, so far so good (though I'm only four chapters in).
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 May 2008 13:08

    You'll love it.
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    Postby martinburo » 15 Jun 2008 09:31

    I have a PDF version of that if you want(methinks of God Makers too)


    Orald, I'd really like having those. I have hard copies, but it's so useful to be able to search for specific text, which I use a lot with my pdf copies of the Dunes. My email is erik1967 at email dot com.
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    Postby Hunchback Jack » 21 Oct 2008 21:29

    Finished reading Dosadi recently. Liked it a lot, but it was very different from Whipping Star. I think I might need to reread the courtroom scene at the end too.

    The Dosadi seem a bit BG-ish in the way they can read people so well. Some classic Herbert themes of morality, and challenging the traditional idea of heroes and bad guys.

    One thing reading these has confirmed to me about FH - when he put pen to paper, he didn't mess around with small ideas.

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    Postby SimonH » 21 Oct 2008 21:50

    Dosadi is easily my favourite non Dune FH book (that I have read anyway)

    I wonder if FH was having to deal with lawyers in large quantities when he wrote Whipping Star and Dosadi. :D

    My take is that a central theme is the use of language as a weapon or a tool (not just verbal language)
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Oct 2008 13:08

    Hunchback Jack wrote:Finished reading Dosadi recently. Liked it a lot, but it was very different from Whipping Star. I think I might need to reread the courtroom scene at the end too.
    HBJ


    You and me both. I could use a massive dose of insight into a lot of the Gowachin law.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 13:13

    Didn't the winner get eaten or something like that? It's been a LONG time since I read that one.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Oct 2008 13:23

    If the defendant is found innocent they are torn limb from limb is what I remember, but if they're found guilty they get some lesser sentence. I never have figured out why, and what FH was trying to tell us with that. :oops:
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 13:30

    Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author :shock: , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Oct 2008 13:42

    Freakzilla wrote:Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author :shock: , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".


    All six at once would kill anyone's brain. Go get some well needed rest from FH overdose. :D
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Oct 2008 13:51

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author :shock: , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".


    All six at once would kill anyone's brain. Go get some well needed rest from FH overdose. :D


    I would not recomment it to anyone who doesn't have them practically memorized beforehand. I just read the first two Hitchiker's Guide books, that was a nice change of pace.
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    Postby SimonH » 22 Oct 2008 21:31

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:If the defendant is found innocent they are torn limb from limb is what I remember, but if they're found guilty they get some lesser sentence. I never have figured out why, and what FH was trying to tell us with that. :oops:


    I think I know...

    I think it has something to do with the concept of the father Gowachin culling his taddies to make sure his children are strong.
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    Postby SandChigger » 22 Oct 2008 22:54

    Frank didn't cull hard enough.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby SimonH » 22 Oct 2008 23:15

    :lol: maybe it was an expression of an repressed desire
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