Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Revolt against the ruling computer?

An example of Frank's version of the Butlerian Jihad?

If you're refering to the DemoPol, then maybe related in a very twisty way...though frankly, this isn't much about rulling machines as much as rulling persons, warlords on Dosadi and shadow-figures behind the governments in the ConSentiency in this case.

From what I understood, the DemoPol is used to know what a population wants and thus control it better in the guise of giving it what it needs.
It's merely a tool.

I just finished reading it 2 days ago, and while I haven't understood everything, the main themes seem to be the power people are attracted to, the desire to conservatism(immortallity, institutions and law systems) and how they work against adaptation of spiecies in a changing universe, and(again, as in Dune and Pandora) how stressful and harsh invironments and situations that test your limit elevate you and make you "stronger".

I thought I remember McKie expressing surprise about the existence of the DemoPol and emphasizing that it was very dangerous not just merely a tool.

The computer is still running the show on some level wasn't it, but I don't mean anything close to ominius.

I'll have to hunt down the passages.

I don't remember there being an AI presence in that. ???

Me neither. Like I said, I just fiished reading it for the first time 2 days ago, and the DemoPol was only mentioned as a tool for assessing the population's direction of thought and such, as a tool for controlling them.
They use a simulation system to predict how different people will act(there's a scene where they use it to preject Broey's actions), and it's mentioned it's a deriviative of the DemoPol technology, if I'm not mistaken, or uses something similar to it.

the 2 major themes I've seen in this book are that of conservatism(the "immortal" body changers) vs adaptation and change(BuSab, Gowachin Law and Dosadi population), and how the harsh environment produces "super" beings, like Arrakis and Salusa Secundus.

SandChigger wrote:I don't remember there being an AI presence in that. ???

I don't remember an AI either, except maybe the daily planner he talked to at the beginning, but certainly nothing like what was envisioned by P&B.

Ah, it was a relatively minor issue if you ask me, more like a side jab at how machines(again, as in Dune) are incapable of predicting and understanding what's good for humans.
I think you can also see that in the fact that all those computer generated profiles were nice and all, but still Jedric and McKie were able to have better predictions about the acts of some people than even the computers.

I liked this book, I think it continues with alot of FH's philosophy that people can become amazing things when exposed to extreme suffering. The plight of all Dosadi's people is comparable to the tough life of Fremen, Teg's torture, and also the "scream room" from The Jesus Incident.
Any other examples of FH talking about "tempering" humans into weapons that I'm missing?

-The sardaukar, obviously.
-The BG go through a life of tight discipline and then the Agony.
-God Leto under the pressure of the spice trance and agony, together with Paul.
-Gholas need emotional or physical suffering to regain their memories.
-D:V has the crew facing, not exactly suffering, but tight conditions.
-Perhaps Under Pressure also has that, but very limitedly, they don't really evolve in that book.
-The White Plague has the hero going mad under the suffering and becoming more brilliant than ever.
-The Heaven Makers. You caould call Ruth's emotional suffering for her family, her ex boyfriend and the force-field thingy the Chem use to control her such, and that makes her evolve from her rather flat character in the begining of the book(and she gains some ressistence to the field, albeit only partial).
-I think The God Makers has some sort of trials to the hero before he because enlightened enough to become a "god". Don't remember much though.

That's all I could think of from the books I've read.

I haven't read God Makers or The White Plague yet, how are they?

God Makers is a bit, uh, unsatisfying.

I think TWP is brilliant, if only a bit too long. But it may have to do with the fact I've thought of doing the same as the hero myself many times even before reading it.
Though I'll probably kill all men, not all women.

I have a PDF version of that if you want(methinks of God Makers too), but I guess you're just buying a hard copy of it anyway to add to your collection.

I just started reading this one, so far so good (though I'm only four chapters in).

You'll love it.

I have a PDF version of that if you want(methinks of God Makers too)

Orald, I'd really like having those. I have hard copies, but it's so useful to be able to search for specific text, which I use a lot with my pdf copies of the Dunes. My email is erik1967 at email dot com.

Finished reading Dosadi recently. Liked it a lot, but it was very different from Whipping Star. I think I might need to reread the courtroom scene at the end too.

The Dosadi seem a bit BG-ish in the way they can read people so well. Some classic Herbert themes of morality, and challenging the traditional idea of heroes and bad guys.

One thing reading these has confirmed to me about FH - when he put pen to paper, he didn't mess around with small ideas.

HBJ

Dosadi is easily my favourite non Dune FH book (that I have read anyway)

I wonder if FH was having to deal with lawyers in large quantities when he wrote Whipping Star and Dosadi.

My take is that a central theme is the use of language as a weapon or a tool (not just verbal language)

Hunchback Jack wrote:Finished reading Dosadi recently. Liked it a lot, but it was very different from Whipping Star. I think I might need to reread the courtroom scene at the end too.
HBJ

You and me both. I could use a massive dose of insight into a lot of the Gowachin law.

Didn't the winner get eaten or something like that? It's been a LONG time since I read that one.

If the defendant is found innocent they are torn limb from limb is what I remember, but if they're found guilty they get some lesser sentence. I never have figured out why, and what FH was trying to tell us with that.

Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".

Freakzilla wrote:Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".

All six at once would kill anyone's brain. Go get some well needed rest from FH overdose.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:Me neither. I'm going to read some books by another author , I need a break from FH after reading all six Dune books at once. But after that I plan to re-read his "other books".

All six at once would kill anyone's brain. Go get some well needed rest from FH overdose.

I would not recomment it to anyone who doesn't have them practically memorized beforehand. I just read the first two Hitchiker's Guide books, that was a nice change of pace.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:If the defendant is found innocent they are torn limb from limb is what I remember, but if they're found guilty they get some lesser sentence. I never have figured out why, and what FH was trying to tell us with that.

I think I know...

I think it has something to do with the concept of the father Gowachin culling his taddies to make sure his children are strong.

Frank didn't cull hard enough.

maybe it was an expression of an repressed desire