New Wave

Image
    Non-Dune Frank Herbert Book Discussion

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla, Mr. Teg

User avatar
Syzygy
Posts: 14
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 13:07

New Wave

Postby Syzygy » 06 Nov 2012 13:25

I've heard that Frank Herbert really disliked being labelled a "New Wave" writer.

I think it is obvious that he is a New Wave writer - distrust of technology; use of "psi" phenomena; etc. I am surprised that he didn't like the term.

Is anyone familiar with a text or interview in which he related his disapproval?

Thank you!

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Nov 2012 18:09

I wouldn't say he distrusted technology but how people might use it.

Sorry, I don't have a source for that... I've never really noticed him being called "new wave" and to be honest, I don't really know what it means.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Syzygy
Posts: 14
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 13:07

Re: New Wave

Postby Syzygy » 07 Nov 2012 07:23

Freakzilla wrote:I wouldn't say he distrusted technology but how people might use it.

Sorry, I don't have a source for that... I've never really noticed him being called "new wave" and to be honest, I don't really know what it means.


That's a good point about distrusting how people might use technology.

You know how people say that the Dune series was written as a reaction against Asimov's Foundation series? Asimov is considered to be a "Golden Age" SF writer. Golden Age SF is normally associated with "Hard SF".i.e. very science/technology driven. The "New Wave" writers emerged during the 1960s...so there is the hippie influence of mysticism, drugs, etc.

It was just something I was curious about. :)

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 07:39

I see. I can see where he might object to being labeled as such.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: New Wave

Postby lotek » 07 Nov 2012 07:41

Google is quite a good tool when you are curious about any subject.

Image

Last link :
http://sciencefictionlab.lmc.gatech.edu ... p/new_wave

This sounds interesting
Linked Bibliography

Criticism/Theory

Ellison, Harlan. “Introduction: Thirty-Two Soothsayers.” In Dangerous Visions, ed. Harlan Ellison. Garden City: Doubleday, 1967.
Greenland, Colin. The Entropy Exhibition: Michael Moorcock and the British “New Wave” in Scienc Fiction. Routledge: London, 1983.
James, Edward. Science Fiction in the 20th Century. Oxford University Press: Oxford, 1994.
James, Edward. The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction. Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, 2004.
Merril, Judith. “Introduction.” SF: The Best of the Best, ed. Judith Merril. Dell: New York, 1967.
Merril, Judith. “Introduction.” The Year's Best Science Fiction, Volumes I-IV. ed. Judith Merril. Gnome Press, 1956-59. Volumes V-IX. ed. Judith Merril Simon & Schuster, 1960-64. Volumes X-XII. ed. Judith Merril. Delacorte, 1965-68.
Merril, Judith. “What Do You Mean: Science? Fiction?” Extrapolation 7. May, 1966: 30-46.


I'm not sure that FH would have wanted to be opposed to anyone or genre, but it's just a gut feeling for now.

EDIT TO ADD
Someone seems to have a lot to say on the subject here too http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/884 ... -biography
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 08:43

Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Syzygy
Posts: 14
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 13:07

Re: New Wave

Postby Syzygy » 07 Nov 2012 09:04

I don't actually dispute that the label of "New Wave" was applied to Herbert. Someone told me that he didn't like the label...I was curious whether anyone had come across an interview or article about this. That's all, really.

I read the Goodreads article a while ago, but I didn't read the comments. I guess sometimes the comments are more interesting than the article!

Thanks for the responses.

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: New Wave

Postby lotek » 07 Nov 2012 09:30

Syzygy wrote:I don't actually dispute that the label of "New Wave" was applied to Herbert. Someone told me that he didn't like the label...I was curious whether anyone had come across an interview or article about this. That's all, really.


Yeah I got that but I never asked myself that question, at least consciously since you'd have to be stupid of KJA not to realize the difference between Asimov style SF and FH's take.


NB : Georgia Tech ftw ^^
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
ULFsurfer
Posts: 270
Joined: 02 Apr 2011 21:20
Location: Among hills & coal mines

Re: New Wave

Postby ULFsurfer » 07 Nov 2012 09:46

I'm not sure if there's a confusion between New Wave and Flower Power going on here, but New Wave in terms of sci-fi simply means that the stories started to become more elaborate and thoughtful in contrast to the more simpleton golden age stuff. Dune certainly was a very distinct novel that took sci-fi into this new direction, whether you want to call it New Wave or something else.

Lengthy Wiki entry here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_(science_fiction)

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: New Wave

Postby lotek » 07 Nov 2012 10:41

Well New Wave and the hippies had at least a free and new approach to sex and drugs in common ^^

Wiki classifies FH as New Wave btw.

Image
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 11:07

Syzygy wrote:I guess sometimes the comments are more interesting than the article!


That seems to apply more frequently all over these days.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2830
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: New Wave

Postby Serkanner » 07 Nov 2012 14:50

Syzygy wrote:I've heard that Frank Herbert really disliked being labelled a "New Wave" writer.

I think it is obvious that he is a New Wave writer - distrust of technology; use of "psi" phenomena; etc. I am surprised that he didn't like the term.

Is anyone familiar with a text or interview in which he related his disapproval?

Thank you!


Any quotes from articles about this? As far as I know Frank was rather "modern" in his approach to technology. He even build his own computer when they were not yet mainstream tools.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 15:01

Serkanner wrote:
Syzygy wrote:I've heard that Frank Herbert really disliked being labelled a "New Wave" writer.

I think it is obvious that he is a New Wave writer - distrust of technology; use of "psi" phenomena; etc. I am surprised that he didn't like the term.

Is anyone familiar with a text or interview in which he related his disapproval?

Thank you!


Any quotes from articles about this? As far as I know Frank was rather "modern" in his approach to technology. He even build his own computer when they were not yet mainstream tools.


I believe he was all into "green" tecnology too.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Syzygy
Posts: 14
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 13:07

Re: New Wave

Postby Syzygy » 07 Nov 2012 16:21

I keep thinking about the fact that technology isn't quite front and center in the Dune series. For example, despite access to atomic weapons, shield technology (if operational) renders it null and void...this results in a feudal empire where problems are resolved with knife fights.

I agree with the other poster that it wasn't so much a case of Herbert distrusting technology itself, but rather the people who eventually misuse it.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Nov 2012 18:09

Lasers, too. But they have interstellar travel, suspensors, cloning, brain probes, biometrics, etc...
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6631
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby Omphalos » 08 Nov 2012 14:11

The New Wave in SF came out of Galaxy Magazine's change of the focus of SF on plot-driven adventure and science (sometimes super-science) stories to character and psychology and all of the other attributes that are associated with more mainstream writing. The Galaxy magazine heyday was in the 50's. The New Wave started in the 60's and took writing to some extremes. New Wave writers were often highly focused on things like psychology, drugs, altered realities, and produced stuff that could be in some cases called avant garde, at least at the beginning of the New Wave literary movement. I have always viewed the New Wave as the narrow part of the hour-glass between the Golden Age and what we have today, as the post New Wave era gave us all kinds of changes in what was considered acceptable SF, including literary SF, post-modernism, feminism, etc. I like to say that the New Wave changed the focus of SF from outer space to inner space; to the effect of the universe upon the indivicual, from the individual's effect on the universe.

FH is often associated with the New Wave movement because he was one of the early literary writers whose focus was on more than adventure, and in that respect the critics are right. But FH was more than a New Wave writer; he was the New Wave writer who showed others how it was done, and the throw-back qualities of Dune (including dragons/mosters in the wasteland, a scion of a murdered king cast into the wilderness, massive ships in space, evil emperors, swordsmen with poisoned blades, downtrodden serfs and massive battles, to name a few) could be cast in a new light by using new ideas (corporate domination, drugs, expanded consciousness, psi-powers, psychology, nature control, resource manipulation and scarcity, etc) and a few new literary ideas (feminism, inner dialog, focus on character, creation of detailed historical contexts, scientific research and planning, etc).

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: New Wave

Postby SandRider » 08 Nov 2012 20:24

:text-yeahthat:
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Apjak
Posts: 518
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 12:06
Location: Kansas City

Re: New Wave

Postby Apjak » 11 Nov 2012 21:12

Exactly.

Frank also didn't like being pigeon-holed. I feel that he would have some lecture ready about the dangers of "labeling and jargon" ready to go at the drop of a certain phrase.
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: New Wave

Postby lotek » 12 Nov 2012 05:18

Omphalos wrote:The New Wave in SF came out of Galaxy Magazine's change of the focus of SF on plot-driven adventure and science (sometimes super-science) stories to character and psychology and all of the other attributes that are associated with more mainstream writing. The Galaxy magazine heyday was in the 50's. The New Wave started in the 60's and took writing to some extremes. New Wave writers were often highly focused on things like psychology, drugs, altered realities, and produced stuff that could be in some cases called avant garde, at least at the beginning of the New Wave literary movement. I have always viewed the New Wave as the narrow part of the hour-glass between the Golden Age and what we have today, as the post New Wave era gave us all kinds of changes in what was considered acceptable SF, including literary SF, post-modernism, feminism, etc. I like to say that the New Wave changed the focus of SF from outer space to inner space; to the effect of the universe upon the indivicual, from the individual's effect on the universe.

FH is often associated with the New Wave movement because he was one of the early literary writers whose focus was on more than adventure, and in that respect the critics are right. But FH was more than a New Wave writer; he was the New Wave writer who showed others how it was done, and the throw-back qualities of Dune (including dragons/mosters in the wasteland, a scion of a murdered king cast into the wilderness, massive ships in space, evil emperors, swordsmen with poisoned blades, downtrodden serfs and massive battles, to name a few) could be cast in a new light by using new ideas (corporate domination, drugs, expanded consciousness, psi-powers, psychology, nature control, resource manipulation and scarcity, etc) and a few new literary ideas (feminism, inner dialog, focus on character, creation of detailed historical contexts, scientific research and planning, etc).



Thanks Omph' !
Spice is the worm's gonads.


Return to “˱”