Dune versus Foundation

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    Non-Dune Frank Herbert Book Discussion

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Demerzel
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Dune versus Foundation

Postby Demerzel » 15 Nov 2011 00:16

I remember reading the comparisons from Omphalos' book review site. To me, Asimov's stories are more like 'concepts', and thus he shines as a short-story writer (even though his text does sound a little outdated). Herbert is more of a worldbuilder and offers much more depth to his stories, even though none of his Dune stories have any sort of 'suspense building' or smack-in-the-face conclusions. If his works were music, I'd say it could be considered 'progressive'. What are your opinions?
When Paul was three I found him wearing lingerie I was planning to wear for my Duke. I asked him: "How can this be?" and he answered: "For I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" I was proud since these were the first words Paul ever spoke, but now I knew for certain that my Paul was a special boy. I brought him to Duncan's room while he was busy "training" a young maidservant in the Art of Sword-Handling. My Paul shall be the best! - Tleszer

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Omphalos
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Omphalos » 15 Nov 2011 02:22

There was about 25 years difference there too, from the beginning of the Golden Age of SF to the beginning of the New Wave; from the last pre-war years to the early Age of Aquarius. Plus they're the writings of a scientist compared to the words of a dreamer and man of letters. And both pushed by Campbell, who himself had 25 years to change. On top of all that, it's art. Its akin to comparing a Renaissance cantiga to Beethoven to Yngwie Malmstein. It's apples and oranges in the final result, IMHO. But I will admit its also fertile ground for navel gazing. As you can tell, I get lost doing it myself.

BTW, was that you recently I was chatting with over there? If so, glad to have the company. I've been ignoring that place recently because I was wondering if anyone was still using it.

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Demerzel
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Demerzel » 15 Nov 2011 08:03

Chatting? No :(. I was just passing by. Good stuff you have there.
When Paul was three I found him wearing lingerie I was planning to wear for my Duke. I asked him: "How can this be?" and he answered: "For I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" I was proud since these were the first words Paul ever spoke, but now I knew for certain that my Paul was a special boy. I brought him to Duncan's room while he was busy "training" a young maidservant in the Art of Sword-Handling. My Paul shall be the best! - Tleszer

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Freakzilla
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Freakzilla » 15 Nov 2011 10:09

Tim O'Riley wrote that Dune was a commentary on the Foundation Trilogy. I think that's partly true.

http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/ch05.html
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Shaitan
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Shaitan » 23 Nov 2011 01:52

Freakzilla wrote:Tim O'Riley wrote that Dune was a commentary on the Foundation Trilogy. I think that's partly true.

http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/ch05.html


They certainly share certain elements of culture-building and history-shaping-through-foresight/prescience.....but you could also look at them as opposite polar ends of a conceptual axis: a scientific approach to understanding of future-history versus a mystical approach to understanding of future-history.
"When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro." -Hunter S. Thompson
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Demerzel
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Demerzel » 19 Dec 2011 14:32

I don't agree with the comparison of BG and Second Foundation psychohistorians. The quote from Herbert's essay, well it piques me. It makes sense, but Asimov's stress on the term 'probability' also makes a lot of sense - why should science be incapable of raising the odds against any surprises for humanity, especially science based that far in the future?

A subjective common trait would be that while both stories are incomplete, they end up with something I was uneasy about. The last paragraph from Foundation and Earth as well as the last chapter of CH:D were both very climactic, foreboding and ultimately quite disturbing.
When Paul was three I found him wearing lingerie I was planning to wear for my Duke. I asked him: "How can this be?" and he answered: "For I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" I was proud since these were the first words Paul ever spoke, but now I knew for certain that my Paul was a special boy. I brought him to Duncan's room while he was busy "training" a young maidservant in the Art of Sword-Handling. My Paul shall be the best! - Tleszer

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Crysknife
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Crysknife » 19 Dec 2011 21:34

There are a ton of similarities between the two works. I wrote a post about it a long time ago but can't find the link. Some of the things I remember are "Reverened Fathers" , personal shields that play key roles, and that religion is used by those in power to manipulate. There was a bunch of other stuff but can't recall it at the moment.
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Freakzilla
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Re: Dune versus Foundation

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Dec 2011 21:35

I don't think it was meant to be similar, Dune was meant to be a contrast.
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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