Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Feels like hanging out with detectives.

SandChigger wrote:Add to the above the fact that people still know Ecaz:

FH in CH:D wrote:She fell into a semi-reverie, still alert to the sounds behind her, but relishing the evidence of new victories that had been displayed to her this morning. She liked to roll the names of captive planets silently on her tongue.

Wallach, Kronin, Reenol, Ecaz, Bela Tegeuse, Gammu, Gamont, Niushe...

Ecaz, or Alpha Centauri B IV, was no doubt the first planet settled outside the solar system. If the Atreides can still remember they're descended from Atreus after well over two hundred and fifty centuries, surely someone on Ecaz remembers that theirs is the oldest colony world and why.

Earth is conspicuous by its absence.

The first colony outside Earth would be on the moon, hence the island of old Earth probably refers to the moon. I thought this had all been settled some time ago.

And where would the troublemaker like his bite?

Actually, our first off-world colony is passing about 350 km over your head every hour and a half or so.

Oh yeah, the Space Station. Wasn't that another contender for the CET's get-together? Honestly, the lengths the Special Forces will go to in order to excuse another of Comb-Over's fuck ups. It's all starting to make sense, now.

There was a time I was genuinely hoping we would find that Arrakis was really Earth, but long forgotton and unrecognizable after its Dunification by sandworms, which humanity was somehow responsible for.

That could have worked if FH hadn't been specific about details like what star Arrakis orbited, etc.

There was a period before Hunters came out IIRC when we were very afraid that the no-ship would do a time-slip and its worms would be the source of the worms on Arrakis (despite the problems that would cause with the more intelligent, post-Leto II worms becoming the original worms).

Instead we got seaworms and ultra-spice.

(sigh)

SandChigger wrote:That could have worked if FH hadn't been specific about details like what star Arrakis orbited, etc.

There was a period before Hunters came out IIRC when we were very afraid that the no-ship would do a time-slip and its worms would be the source of the worms on Arrakis (despite the problems that would cause with the more intelligent, post-Leto II worms becoming the original worms).

Instead we got seaworms and ultra-spice.

(sigh)

Time travel seems tame by comparison now, doesn't it?

SandChigger wrote:That could have worked if FH hadn't been specific about details like what star Arrakis orbited, etc.

There was a period before Hunters came out IIRC when we were very afraid that the no-ship would do a time-slip and its worms would be the source of the worms on Arrakis (despite the problems that would cause with the more intelligent, post-Leto II worms becoming the original worms).

Instead we got seaworms and ultra-spice.

(sigh)

You forgot to mention the resurrection of the worms on Rakis...I mean, it's important because it pretty much FUCKS UP Heretics of Dune for killing the worms in the first place...

Freakzilla wrote:

SandChigger wrote:That could have worked if FH hadn't been specific about details like what star Arrakis orbited, etc.

There was a period before Hunters came out IIRC when we were very afraid that the no-ship would do a time-slip and its worms would be the source of the worms on Arrakis (despite the problems that would cause with the more intelligent, post-Leto II worms becoming the original worms).

Instead we got seaworms and ultra-spice.

(sigh)

Time travel seems tame by comparison now, doesn't it?

Nah, that particular time-travel loop would have made me more angry (were it not for the fact that it would be an awesome barb against KJA).

OK, I have a bit more evidence that Earth no longer exists by the time of Chapterhouse at least... The Rabbi thinks of "Secret Israel", planets full of Jews. I really doubt we'd have filled other planets full of Jews to live on our own if the original Earth with its original homeland remained available.

Honestly, my guess is that Earth in Duniverse suffered a Firefly-style ecological disaster. It got "used up" and humanity just moved on. By that time they had so many other worlds that the extinction of the original ecosystem became a footnote.

Baraka Bryan wrote:even if it would no longer be useful for habitation, it doesn't mean it didn't exist anymore.

If human life cannot go on on the surface of the planet, it may continue existing but people will forget about it.

moreh_yeladim wrote:

Baraka Bryan wrote:even if it would no longer be useful for habitation, it doesn't mean it didn't exist anymore.

If human life cannot go on on the surface of the planet, it may continue existing but people will forget about it.

Ah, but they didn't.

Freakzilla wrote:

moreh_yeladim wrote:

Baraka Bryan wrote:even if it would no longer be useful for habitation, it doesn't mean it didn't exist anymore.

If human life cannot go on on the surface of the planet, it may continue existing but people will forget about it.

Ah, but they didn't.

In a way they did. They forgot its reality, its spacial location, geography and ecology, and instead remembered only the myth of it.

Apologies for dragging up an old thread, but possible developments caused me to read the Appendix in question and I found a later remark (which I can't see being mentioned anywhere here, hopefully) which backs up Chigs exceptional detective work about the C.E.T. meeting in Hawaii:

FH in Appendix II wrote:The troubadors, quite naturally, had a field day. A popular musical comedy of the period had one of the C.E.T. delegates sitting on a white sand beach beneath a palm tree singing...

So it can't be a space station, or an asteroid, or the bloody moon - it's a tropical island. I take it the beaches of Hawaii are white sandy ones and not black lava ones???

"white sand beach Hawaii" turns up 5,680,000 Ghits.

I thought we had the troubadour & palm tree quote in there, somewhere; oh well.

Of course, all the Hack has to do IN HIS MIND is to declare the appendix an ERRONEOUS in-universe text. Because, after all, it IS an in-universe text.

The satellite/space station idea is one that won't die. As far as I know, it was first mentioned by TAZ over on Dune Novels (or maybe on Wikipedia?). That was back when he was flaunting his relationship with KJA, so it's completely possible that the idea comes originally from KJA.

They may have missed the fact that the C.E.T. would later meet on Earth when they destroyed the planet at the beginning of the Jihad ... a sloppy but more or less honest mistake. Or they may have been planning to fuck the series like this from the very beginning. What better revenge on a hated father than to turn around and twist every detail in his masterwork? What better coup for a hack writer than to "creatively reimagine" every detail in the books of a much greater writer?

Sorry, dude, I *still* don't think it's malicious.

They're just not careful enough to avoid making these sort of mistakes, and the whole "read the next book and it will all make sense" rubbish is just fast talk to cover their own incompetence. In a way, I wonder whether they enjoy hearing about these little mistakes, and see it as a creative *challenge* for them to "fix" them in later books.



HBJ

That's my thought as well.

All of human beings come from where, Ethiopia?, and yet no one ever feels the need to travel there for some purpose or another. Could be the same way for Earth.

The comment about it no longer existing is a bit troubling, though. No longer exist would indicate it was destroyed or sucked into a black hole or something. DE mentions it gets hit by a meteorite that destroys everything at some point after the CET I think, which makes as much sense as anything else. Why the coordinates would be lost I'm not sure.

Hunchback Jack wrote: They're just not careful enough to avoid making these sort of mistakes, and the whole "read the next book and it will all make sense" rubbish is just fast talk to cover their own incompetence.

Yeah, I don't think either of them is creatively ambitious enough to try to, or know how to subvert Frank Herbert's creation. I see them as greedy, thoughtless, and incompetent. Hacks, if you will.

Obviously they're not talented enough to have carried it off convincingly, but I guarantee that KJA views the whole "Dune originals are in-universe texts" line of bullshit as a creative reimagining of the series.

SandChigger wrote:Obviously they're not talented enough to have carried it off convincingly, but I guarantee that KJA views the whole "Dune originals are in-universe texts" line of bullshit as a creative reimagining of the series.

Yeah, come to think of it, the Irulan as writer of Dune thing is extremely heavy-handed. Hawaii seems like a mistake to me, but they have definitely made a lot of huge changes very deliberately, and they probably think they are taking Dune in more interesting directions.

KJA also said somewhere that Frank Herbert has huge events happen off-stage, whereas he and Brian like to show them. He's trying to say that he's better at "show, don't tell" than Frank Herbert. He's mainly showing us, by the way he uses it, that he doesn't even understand what "show, don't tell" is. But there's also an enormous amount of arrogance, and possibly contempt, towards Frank Herbert in statements like that.

I've never been sure how serious the SandChigger is with the "Brian-hates-Frank-so-much-he's-fucking-up-Dune"
thing ... it's a fun idea and I've certainly propagated it myself because it sets Merritt off ... but I don't think it's
true ... I think Brian and Spanky really, honestly think they are doing a Good Thing for Frank and Dune ...
but they are both just such talentless, unimaginative assholes, they can't see the obvious truth ... and Spanky's
dug in his heels, he's right, we're wrong, so that dog won't never let go of the bone .. he's going to go out of
his way to slap together some plot-hole-filled idea about the C.E.T. and the way he SunCrushed the Earth
because Brian was drunk when he did the working timeline ... and I don't think this is to prove Frank was wrong,
or even that the OH is wrong ... it will be to prove that he is right, and a masterful story-teller to boot,
(like Homer, eh?) and can pull all these elements together into a coherent story ...

of course, he can't, and we'll point that out, and he'll ignore us and his fans will jackasses of themselves
all over the web .... good times ...


and where's onasander with his theories ?

yes, we are discussing Spanky, because Spanky is talking about the next book and already tossing out
ideas that are in conflict with Frank's Dune ... of course we've got some comments ...

I just hate seriously stupid people. And the thought that seriously stupid people are in control of something like Dune is outrageous.

I'd almost rather believe that Brian Herbert is an evil genius, manipulating a no-talent ego-maniac hack like a brainless puppet for his own nefarious purposes.

with the advent of "TheKJA" on Twitter, we've had daily examples of just how really dumb Spanky is ...
and not just about "science fiction" writing or publishing or teh innerwebz, but just generally clueless about
adult American life ....

I'd bet a Brian Herbert twit would reveal much the same ...

and Byron Merritt is a walking sack of dumbass ...